Jesus the man from heaven

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    1 Cor 15:47

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    One of the great biblical truthes of the person of the messiah, is that his origin even as a man, is from heaven. I dont believe there is a clearer verse of scripture than our text.

    Many believe that Jesus Christ didnt become man until the virgin birth, but thats not true, He was the GodMan Mediator from everlasting. No, i am not advocating that he had flesh and blood, but that he was a Spiritual Heavenly Man[ As an Angel ] with a Heavenly Body, Created out of the Godhead.

    Here are more scriptures that imply Jesus Christ was a man before the incarnation:

    Jn 6:62

    62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he[ Son of man] was before?

    Here it plainly indicates that he was the son of man before he descended to be born of a virgin..

    Eph 4:8-9

    8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    He that descended [ in the incarnation] is the same [son of man] who ascended..

    Jn 3:30-31

    30He must increase, but I must decrease.

    31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

    John the baptist appears to understand the heavenly origin of this man..also:

    Jn 1:30

    30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.




    Jn 16:27

    27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God

    His disciples realized his heavenly origin..

    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father

    30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.


    Jn 6:33,50,58

    33 The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world

    50 Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die.

    58 I am the true bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will not die as your ancestors did (even though they ate the manna) but will live forever

    The reference to Jesus calling himself bread, is indicative of him being of subtance, in a body, before he came down from heaven

    note: he didnt come down to become bread, but he was bread who came down..

    later he says the bread is his flesh..Jn 6:51

    51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


    Remember Jesus said this Jn 17:5

    5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    The Glory as the Godman Mediator..

    There are many more verses that imply Jesus Christ was the GodMan Mediator, before the incarnation..He was before all things, as the head of the Church:


    Col 1:15-18

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    This is a essential truth of the person of Jesus christ, its who Jesus christ is as he left heaven to come and die for the sins of the Church, His body..
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    Thanks for the revelation that his preexistent humanity is like angels. Most of us didn't know angels had humanity. Most of us believe humanity is defined by a human nature that is distinct from angelic nature. So this humanity was "created out of the Godhead" before creation??????? Wow! Gone from Mormonism to Jehovah's Witnessism.

    Of course this absolute nonsensical heretical idea is consistent with your view of God's THOUGHTS as more than THOUGHTS but rather transcend the Being of God into some kind of actual existence OR ELSE they are God.

    Anyone else that wants to deal with such nonsense - go for it.
     
    #2 Dr. Walter, Aug 18, 2011
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  3. savedbymercy

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    You have just ignored and scoffed much scripture..
     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    Not at all. I have just scoffed the PERVERSION of much Scriptures.
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    God will be The Judge..
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    You better believe it!
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    For thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God

    Matt 16:16-18

    16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    This declaration said Jesus, did not come from flesh and blood, that is from human wisdom or learning, for this was a truth that could only have been known by Revelation of the Father..

    The Father had revealed to Peter, that the Man Jesus Christ, who was with them presently, was not just an ordinary Man, not even a ordinary man of God or prophet, but that this man was the anointed one [not in His Deity but Manhood], The Son of the living God..

    Now I am sure Peter and the other disciples understood not what all that entailed or meant at that time, but in time it would be made clear, for Jesus saith in Matt 13:12

    12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance..

    That means, those whom God had revealed some truth to, spiritual perception, they can expect an abundance of more of the same, giving them a fuller revelation to complete or complement what He has already given them..see Phil 3:15..

    Many believe here that peter was acknowledging the Deity of Christ here in vs 16, but even thou Jesus is Deity, that wasn't the point of emphasis here, for again, Deity is not anointed, but his Manhood is in view, it was the uniqueness of His being as a man [Mk 4:41] For Jesus Christ was anointed over and above, all that came before him, such as moses, john the baptist or other noted great prophets to that nation, for he was uniquely special from the very corridors of heaven, He was Gods very own Unique man Son, even as Adam was, but only he was from the opposite, the earth..for Adam being a Son of God see Lk 3:38.. Remember Jesus said later of his disciples, that they had believed that he [as a man] had came out from God:

    Jn 16:27,28.30

    27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I [as a man] came out from God.

    Note: Deity cannot be meant here, for Deity does not come out from God, for it is God..

    28 I [as a man] came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father



    30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    Jesus Christ disciples therefore were given to understand that Jesus Christ was an anointed man from heaven [see 1 Cor 15:47]..a man that came from God just as but greater than john the baptist who was a man sent from God [see Jn 1:6] a man who was Gods Own Unique Son from heaven..

    Again, the point here is not so much on the Deity of Christ, though He is Deity, when considered with His Oneness with the Divine Logos [Jn 1:1], but this confession has to do with him as a man, thats why the specific question was asked Matt 16:13

    13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    Jesus emphasis is on his Manhood here, for the term son of man makes that clear..Jesus was asking, as a man, who am i ?

    I will in my next post show why this question and peters confession is so critical and how this confession is the foundation of Christ building His Church and True Christianity...
     
  8. Dr. Walter

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    You just FORCE your interpretations upon the Scriptures and when they don't say what you want them to say, then you ADD your own words to the texts. Not a single one of these texts teach pre-incarnate humanity of Christ.

    Matthew 16:17 simply denies that the SOURCE of Peter's understanding of who Christ is ORIGINATES with NATURAL MAN ("flesh and blood" - look this phrase up and see how it is used throughout scriptures) but with REVELATION from God just as all truth comes by HOLY SPIRIT teaching in spite of the human instrument to convey the truth (1 Jn. 2:29).

    The preincarnate God the Son is called "the Word" (Jn. 1:1) and "the Word" is "God" (Jn. 1:1) and did not "become" flesh until AFTER creation (Jn. 1:14). The term "flesh" in John 1:14 is used to describe the WHOLE HUMAN NATURE in contrast to his preincarnate NATURE AS GOD - look at the context from John 1:1-14 - there is no MIDDLE transition between Him being GOD (vv. 1-3) between eternity and incarnation.

    Second, your own doctrine of Christ contradicts your interpretations. You have stated the pre-incarnate HUMAN Jesus was CREATED by the Trinue God and therefore not ETERNAL and so there can be no ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION between THE MAN Christ Jesus as mediator with the elect according to your own doctrine.

    Third, the phrase "come from God" does not mean he is claiming that his HUMAN NATURE preexisted in heaven BECAUSE many of the unregenerated Sanhedrin used the very same words about Jesus:

    Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    Nicodemus was not saying "we know" that his humanity originated in heaven before creation. He is simply saying that his MINISTRY was a God sent one as he goes on to say "except God be with him." This is all Jesus is saying and said repeatedly that His authority and ministry originated with God not man.

     
  9. savedbymercy

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    dw

    The Mediator Man Christ was begotten from Everlasting, so If that be the case, and His Body was in Union with Him at that date, how long does that make the Union ?

    Prov 8:22-23 is speaking about Christ the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

    24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    Now lets look at Prov 8:22-23


    22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    This word set up is the hebrew nacak and it means:

    to pour out, pour, offer, cast

    a) (Qal)

    1) to pour out

    2) to cast metal images

    3) to anoint (a king)

    b) (Niphal) to be anointed

    And Christ means :

    Christ = "anointed"

    This to me confirms that Christ is here as the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

    Now, Christ says of Himself, I was setup or Anointed from Everlasting ! And if so, He was the Head of His Seed in Him at that same date..

    Christ and His Seed are all of One Heb 2:11

    11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    So this is what my beliefs are grounded in, The Scripture, does not matter if you cannot receive it, its there anyway..
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    So now, you have changed your mind and instead of saying the human nature was "created by God" you are now saying it was eternally "begotten" by God.

    So you reject the eternal generation of God the Son but apply it to HUMAN NATURE? Thus God must be a man as well as God can only reproduce after HIS OWN KIND and you did say the human nature was "begotten" did you not?

    One error leads to another error and before long you build a brand new "Christian" denomination based upon a foundation of errors.

    Where are Christians in the past that hold to your INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture on this point? Mormon's do!


     
  11. savedbymercy

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    dw

    Its the same thing, the point being is that it was generated, and that from everlasting..
     
  12. Dr. Walter

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    What theological background and expertise do you have to make such judgements?

    Do you know the that two completely different Greek terms are used? The Greek term translated "creation" is NEVER used to translate "begotten."

    You simply don't know what you are talking about!
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    dw

    This is not about me, its about The Man from Heaven..
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    Do you know of anyone else on this forum that is teaching these kind of things? Do you know of ANYONE who is teaching these kind of things?

    How can you say it is "not about me" when you are the ONLY one teaching these kind of things.

    Why should we believe you when you already have admitted to changing the scriptures to suite yourself when you claim one word "begotten" means the same thing as "created" when any school child that can read a Strong's Concordance knows that is false. When it is your practice on this forum to pit scripture against scripture and consistently ignore volumes of contrary evidence placed before you!!!! These are the earmarks of what the Bible gives to define as a false teacher.
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    Now, what is so important about peters confession of Jesus Christ being the Son of the Living God ? The importance is this, peter was acknowledging [maybe not fully understanding] that Jesus Christ was the Second Adam..The Heavenly Adam, who had God as His Father..lets remember, that Luke informs us that the earthly Adam had God as his Father, in that he is called the Son of God Lk 3:38

    38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Hence it was written of Adam Gen 1:26-27

    26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Gen 5:1-2

    1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    So Adam was Gods son by direct creation, and being in Gods image and likeness denotes being His Son as was true with the Heavenly Son Heb 1:2-3

    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    Of course it goes without saying, that the heavenly Sons image and likeness of God far excelleth the earthly sons image and likeness of the Father, but more on that later..

    Now, what was a truth about the earthly son ? It was the fact that the earthly son Adam was created with a seed in him..that is , all the lives of those who would eventually be born into the world, resided in this earthly Son of God..

    So Peter, without understanding it, was confessing , by Jesus Christ being the Son of the Living God, that He had within His loins the lives of all them that would be born again of the heavenly seed..

    We know Peter came to a fuller revelation of his confession, when we read in his epistle

    1 Pet 1:23

    23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    You see, peter knew that by nature, he was of Adams corruptible seed, in that he was in Adam, when Adam was created as the Son of God back in
    Gen 1-2..

    But we see now that peter knew now that he had been born again of the Heavenly Adams seed, the incorruptible seed, because he was in this Adam from the foundation of the world.

    .Eph 1:4

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

    Peter comes to know more of the revelation of what it entailed and meant of Jesus Christ being the Son of the Living God, the firstborn of all creation Col 1:15-16

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Jn writes in Rev 3:14

    14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    This again is not referring to the Deity of Jesus Christ, but to His humanity as the second Adam, the head of the ancient people in him..

    Isa 44:7

    And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

    So peter now acknowledges being born of the incorruptible Man[his seed], the word of God, that liveth and abideth for ever..

    You see, Jesus Christ, as the second Adam, had a seed

    Isa 53:10

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    and this seed shall serve him Ps 22:30-31

    30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Born how ? by corruptible seed ? NO the seed to be born that is to serve him is this those born as peter describes 1 Pet 1:23

    23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    This is what Jesus Christ meant when he said to peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church..and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it..

    The Church of Jesus Christ is comprised of His seed...
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    You are not on the forum to have any kind of valid discussion. You habitually ignore the vast amount of relative evidence placed before you. You habitually pit scripture against scripture rather than answering the objections.

    Why should anyone read what you have to say or even enter a discussion with you? You are in your own little universe.



     
  17. savedbymercy

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    The Second / Last Man or Adam

    1 Cor 15:45,47

    45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    Paul calls Jesus Christ the Last or Second Man/Adam. And why is that so appropriate to call Him Adam at all ? For what makes He and the First Adam Alike ?

    For one, they both were the Son of God..Jn 1:49

    Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    Lk 3:38

    Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Now Paul writes that the First Adam was a figure of he that was to come Rom 5:14

    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    The word figure is the greek word

    typos which denotes:

    the mark of a stroke or blow, print

    2) a figure formed by a blow or impression

    a) of a figure or image

    a type, figure, pattern

    Notice a figure formed by a blow or impression, a print..

    Now Adam was the figure, the impression, the image, pattern the type, print.. form

    So that indicated that the form Adam had when created by God, was the print , impression of the one who was to come..His manly form was an impression, formed as a type..and therefore, their had to be the Antitype already in existence [A Manly Person], if Adam was his figure, shape and form..

    So ask yourself the question, how could Adam be the form of one who did not exist..for what then was the actual blueprint of which he was a figure ?

    Granted, for he was yet to come in the future, but because someone isn't manifested immediately, does not mean they did not exist..

    The person who Adam was a figure, had to exist prior to Adam, or then he wasn't a legitimate figure !

    The first Adam was first only in manifestation of time, but not in actual exisitence..like John the baptist, he was manifested first to the Israel, however Jesus existed before he did..look at the his testimony Jn 1:15,30

    John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    30:

    This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    And this is the same with Jesus Christ and Adam..

    The place where the Man/Adam Jesus Christ existed before Adam was created and whom form and shape, and impression he took, was in Heaven..note:

    1 Cor 15:47

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    Jn 6:62


    62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he [son of man] was before?

    Eph 3:9

    9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Just how could all things be created by the Man Jesus Christ, if He didn't exist as a man in heaven..Jesus Christ is his name as a man..or Christ Jesus.. This is confirmed here:

    1 Tim 2:5

    5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


    He was therefore the medium [another function of a Mediator] He was the medium of creation..so, It reads in that all things was created by Him..that is mediated through Him..and so how could this be true, if he didn't exist before creation, as the Man Jesus Christ, the Mediator ?..
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    Note what he did not say! He did not say "the second man is the MAN from heaven but rather is "the Lord" from heaven.


    Good Mormon theology but not good Biblical Theology. That "image" is restored through regeneration (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and yet has nothing to do with the physical body or the "manly form" of Adam. That "image" refers to the moral, rational, volitional character that reflects the moral, rational and volitional character of God who is "Spirit." It refers to the "spirit" of man making him able to worship God in "spirit."

    Adam lost the "image" of God in the fall but did not lose his "manly form". He lost his "godly form" which is spiritual by nature.

    If the external "form" represented the "image" of God then Man has no more advantage than any other animals who also have VISIBLE FORM.
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    dw

    very weak. 1 Cor 15:47

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    It plainly states that the second Man is from heaven, of course He is the Lord, He is the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

    5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Part of it is, There still is the redemption of the Body to be changed like unto His Glorious Body Phil 3:21

    21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
     
    #19 savedbymercy, Aug 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2011
  20. Dr. Walter

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    Paul says no such thing! Paul identifies the "second man" as "the Lord" and then he identifies the origin of "the Lord" as "from heaven." He does not say the "second man is from heaven" but rather identifes the "second man IS the Lord" and it is "the Lord" that is "from heaven."

    Note what Paul does not say. He does not say that it is "God" who is the mediatory between God and man although Jesus is God manifest in the flesh! He distinguishes between Christ Jesus as "God" versus as "man." According to your theory He has always been both God and man and one is as eternal as the other.

    It is the "man" Christ Jesus not the "God" Christ Jesus that is mediator and the God Christ Jesus BECAME a "man" in order to be the mediator between God and man.
     

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