Jesus the Word or the Bible the Word?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Matt Black, Jun 14, 2004.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just wondered whether posters here regard the most important or supreme revelation of God is to be found in the Incarnation or the Scriptures. Which is more important to you,and why?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  2. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a no-brainer--the incarnation. Only God can be God's self-revelation (the only content of true revelation). No matter how perfect the scriptures are they can never be God's very self.

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    To say it is "Jesus" leaves it open to vague personal interpretation. We do not, however, have Him walking and talking here.

    What did Jesus say? "You have Moses and the Prophets. If they will not hear them, they will not hear one who came back from the dead."

    So, the revealed Word is absolute and clear and without ambiguity.
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible is the Word (logos).
    Jesus is the Word (rhema).
    Jesus is not the Bible.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Inconsistent in that johnv. John 1:1 called Jesus the "logos" three times not the "rhema".

    Emphasis on "rhema" has come from pentecostal teaching that seeks to supplant the written Word with the mystical neubulous word so that they can have their false doctrines "supported".

    Not accusing you of such, but I'd swing far away from defining Jesus as the "rhema".
     
  6. Watchman

    Watchman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    2,706
    Likes Received:
    0
    Q. Jesus the Word or the Bible the Word?
    A. Yes
     
  7. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
  8. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    Meant to add, I can get saved without a bible I can't get saved without Jesus
     
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the question is important because it does affect the way we relate to God and view Him. If the Word (Christ) is the ultimate revelation then we have to try to make other bits of the Bible fit that revelation of God as ultimate self-giving love. If the word (Bible) is the ultimate revelation then we have to try to make our understanding of God's love stretch to encompass what seem on the surface to many people to be extremely unloving acts and decisions, particularly in the OT. I tend to find that, consequently, those who espouse the Bible as the primary revelation tend to be be from a more conservative theological background, whereas those who stress Christ tend to be more liberal in flavour.So, whether you are Bibliocentric or Christocentric does I think have a major bearing on your theological outlook

    Oh, and Dr Bob is right - Jesus is Logos and the Bible is logos ("En arche en ho Logos" etc)

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  10. aefting

    aefting
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    874
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus Christ reveals the Father.
    Holy Spirit reveals Jesus Christ through inspired Scripture.

    Andy
     
  11. MTA

    MTA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    I understand the question, but in light of the scripture above, I am not sure how to respond. It is similar to the discussions of repentance and faith as inseparable graces.

    We have the word of God revealed in scripture and personified by Jesus Christ. Which is more important? How can they be separated?
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not my intent at all. Thank's for clearing that up.
     
  13. Scott J

    Scott J
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    0
    One's "word" is a revelation of their mind/will/person.

    The Bible is a written revelation of God's mind/will/person.

    Christ was the physical manifestation of God's mind/will/person.
     
  14. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Holy Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ Written; The Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy Bible Living.

    Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
     
  15. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    The old testament is about the comming of Christ our Lord and Savior. The NT is about Jesus Christ our Savior.
    Only Jesus saves.We can be saved without the Bible but how many have been saved because they read and were convicted of sin by the words of the Bible. How many have been driven to thier knees because of the revealed Word of God?

    Is'nt it wonderful That God has decided to reveal Himself to us through His written Word . The Bible is God's love letter to man. The Bible is His instruction book to us.Praise the Lord!
     
  16. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, all! But which is more important to you in your daily walk with the Lord, and why? Also, what do you make of my observation that those who stress Christ tend to be more liberal (love?) oriented, whereas those who are Bibliophiles tend to be more conservative (law?) oriented?


    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  17. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    I ask the OP question as I consider it to be important as to our outlook. A purely Biblocentric worldview can lead to a plethora of theological positions. Right at the far end of this is Jack Chick, with his view of Jesus as the faceless judge in front of a conveyor belt of resurrected souls. Furthermore, you have the types who think they can get such a grip on biblical prophecy that they can tell you what time of the afternoon Judgement Day/the Tribulation/the Rapture will start on.

    On the other hand, if we simply argue that the bits we don't like are incompatible with (the biblical portrayal) of Christ, then without adequate safeguards we have the wonderfully shiny Marcion, and his let's ignore/expunge the OT and "Jewish" bits of the NT, because we're dealing with a separate God from that revealed in Jesus.

    Now, ISTM that 'Christocentrics' aren't always trying to harmonise or reconcile their interpretations of Christ with uncomfortable concepts in the Bible, but instead find the latter incompatible and so jettison them. I don't have to be an inerrantist to believe that the Bible doesn't "work" like that - I think it's picture is more consistent.

    ISTM futher that it is fairly uncontroversial to say that there is sometimes a tension between what the Bible seems to say and what a Christian's (God-given) sense of justice, of what is morally right, seems to say. And that in such cases some "wrestling with God" is called for.

    We recognise in our better moments that the word "seem" is rightly employed on both sides of the above sentence - that there is the possibility of a gap between perception and reality on both sides of that tension. Neither our initial sense of right and wrong nor our initial sense of what the Bible is saying to us is infallible down to the last detail.

    We might even agree that to choose sides too soon - to "jettison" one side or the other too lightly - is a mistake, that gives up on the possibility that through that period of wrestling we will be led to a deeper understanding of God.

    So far so good.

    But what if, after much wrestling, the tension is irreconcilable ? If you'll pardon the dreadful phrase "in the final analysis" , "at the end of the day", having striven our best for reconciliation and failed, which way should we jump ?

    It seems that for the 'Bibliocentrics' the bottom line is that what the Bible says is what God says, and anyone following their own moral sense against that is a rebel setting themselves up in the place of God.

    And that for the 'Christocentrics' the bottom line is that what is morally right is what God wants, and any philosophy which goes against that is ultimately depraved. Once you truly delegate your conscience to a book or a person or an organisation, there is no crime so unspeakably vile that you would not do it if that book/person/organisation told you to.

    Both sides have faith that they are right and that the others' view of God is mistaken.

    Discuss!


    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I am a logic prof (and a male) so I tend to the OBJECTIVE side - I can study each nuance of every word in the Greek and Hebrew and know what God is saying and how His will is revealed. My relationship is stiff and formal.

    My wife is an intuitive health professional, often listening to people and "gut instinct" ideas and solutions to problems. And she is female so is very SUBJECTIVE. She spends her time in prayer and communion with Jesus (and asks ME to clarify some doctrinal position).

    I envy that.
     
  19. BCrowe

    BCrowe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you about my approach and that of my wife. I too envy her openness, and I think she wishes to be more objective. I guess we are always needing each other ... something like that is the root of marriage I think!

    What do you think would happen if the church in America would take one hour a month and focus only on God in praise, prayer, and preaching? If we truly worship God I think God will show up ... spiritual awakening?! Today we don't really worship God ... we worship man ... think about how much time last Sunday you spent talking about man and how much time you spent talking about God. Who was worshipped? Worship demands that we focus of God. Much of preaching today is discipleship training instead of worship.

    I have determined to make worship a priority in my life.
     
  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Guys, my wife and I are in a similar position! She also is a healthcare professional (speech and language therapist).

    What I'm driving at in this thread is that for Christocentrics, what can make them liberal is that they find it very difficult to square the picture of God found in some areas of the OT (eg: genocide in Canaan passages)with the God of love Who dies on the cross for our sins they find revealed in the Incarnation and they therefore either jettison these passages or regard them as non-inerrant or non-literal. How do we square the circle here?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     

Share This Page

Loading...