Jesus's Wine Fermented or NOT?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by givengrace, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. givengrace

    givengrace
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    I have always heard and were taught that when in the Bible the word "Wine" is used it isn't a fermented wine it's more like a Juice. Before the fermentation has taken place. And that this is what Jesus drank not the fermented type which was referred to as "strong drink". But someone has told me that the Greek word for Wine is "oinos" which is fermented and is what Jesus drank. I would like to hear what you all think.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    No refrigeration, gotta store the juice someway and fermentation was the way. By the way, I do not like the taste of alcohol, so I do not drink any alcohol. Here the European Baptists use wine [the kind with alcohol] in communion. I dip my piece of bread in the wine ... which is very acceptable here. Some dip their bread, some do not but eat it and sip the wine.
     
  3. givengrace

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    I know that Fermentation takes place but I always was taught that Jesus only drank it BEFORE this took place.
     
  4. Chessic

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    I heard that the Jews of the day cut their wine with 3 parts water. In other words, the 3 parts water contained 1 part wine as a purifier and preservative, somewhat the same way we add chlorine to our tap water. Water does go nasty stored in clay jars and skins made of animal hides and bladders. I'm told that drinking wine "straight" (uncut) for pleasure or thirst would have been seen as barbaric at the time, and that uncut wine was only used for medicinal purposes.
     
  5. Spinach

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    I can't see where it would not be fermented. I can't imagine the Pharisees would have a problem with his juice consumption and it would be a bad thing to be a "wine bibber".
     
  6. Reformer

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    They would have used a different accusation if what He was drinking was unable to get Him drunk. IMHO
     
  7. annsni

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    Well, even if Jesus DID drink grape juice as the "fruit of the vine", He would have had only alcoholic wine at Passover, which as a practicing Jew, He would have observed. Unfermented wine has yeast in it whereas wine, once it's fully fermented, has no more wine left in it (that's the stuff at the bottom of the wine - the "lees"). If He drank grape juice on Passover, He would have been consuming yeast which was wrong on Passover.
     
  8. Jerome

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    Prov. 31:4
    it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
     
  9. sag38

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    Here we go again. Beat up that dead horse boys and girls.
     
  10. Palatka51

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    I think that I am getting a headache. And no, it is not from a hangover. :BangHead:

    How many threads are started on this subject that only ends with discord?

    The idea that Jesus did not drink fermented wine has to do with the fact that He was sinless. To drink alcohol from the moment it enters your body it starts to intoxicate. Granted intoxication is equated to proportion ingested. Lower proof alcoholic drinks (wine) will dissipate from the body before the drinker can feel it's effect of intoxication when consumed in small portions with lapses of time and eating of food. Nevertheless intoxication is taking place.

    Now in regards to the wine that Jesus made at the wedding. Ask yourself one simple question; Would Jesus have contributed to the intoxication to the wedding guest if they had already had their fill of alcoholic wine by offering more of the alcohol?

    The answer is no. He would have offered that which did not contribute to sin.
     
  11. annsni

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    We also need to remember that wine was typically MUCH less alcoholic than what we have today. It was very watered down - much like the wine that is given to children in Europe. So a glass or two would not have intoxicated at all.
     
  12. givengrace

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    I'm sorry I don't want to cause discord. I wrote a "soundoff" in my local paper to something written as to Jesus drinking wine. And as I said before this is what I've been taught in church. Others have responded and I guess I'm just naive in thinking that because WE are Baptist we ALL believe the same. I guess I'm WRONG again as that we don't. Sorry. I only wanted Help and I figured I'll get it from a place with a lot of Pastors but I've sent one to MY Pastor and I'll just wait to hear from him.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    The "juice" that Jesus drank at passover would have come from grapes that were harvested the previous summer. How would it have remained unfermented for that many months?
    I agree with Chessic. The wine of that day was cut, making it unable to intoxicate.
     
  14. Palatka51

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    Easy, You bring the juice to a boil (pasteurizing it) put it into clay jar and seal the lid with wax. Store in root cellar until time to be used for consumption. If wax seal is broken do not use, Return to place of purchase for a full refund or exchange. 100% satisfaction guaranteed. :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  15. canadyjd

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    Scripture says Jesus was a "Nazerene". Some view that as a reference to being from Nazereth, but the where in the O.T. does it say the Messiah was to come from Nazereth?

    One prof I had believed the reference to being a "Nazerene" was a reference to the "nazerite" vows (like Samson and others).

    If Jesus had taken nazerite vows, those vows included not to consume alcohol of any kind.

    Just something else to consider.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. tinytim

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    They didn't use clay jars, they used wineskins that expanded due to fermintation.. that is why Jesus used the analogy of not putting new wine into old wine skins.. because the wine skins would bust open.

    Yes, the wine was alcoholic.
    Maybe not as much as today, but it was, it was the custom, and tradition at that time.

    Here is a question I don't ever think we have ever seen on wine threads before:

    Was this question ever brought up before the late 1800s and the women's temperance movement in America?

    I think the women did such a good job around 1900 convincing people that all alcohol is bad, that it actually became a teaching of the church then.

    Can anyone show from history (before 1800) the question of Jesus drinking alcoholic Wine?...

    This may give us some fresh pastuerized insight...

    As a sidenote, I know an old Baptist church that in it's history, they used to use moonshine for communion....
     
  17. annsni

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    Aren't clay jars not completely airproof? I think most are pourous even if they are fired. I know I'd certainly not try to do any canning in any of them A wax seal and a clay jar will not preserve something properly. Check the Ball Canning Book. ;)

    Yeah - I do a little preserving around here - mostly my Christmas Jam. :D
     
  18. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Personally I have no problem with Jesus’ wine being fermented. For all the reasons given already I believe it was. Keeping and storing unfermented juice would have been impossible in Biblical times. The Bible never prohibits drinking alcohol, only drunkenness.

    The closest we can get to a prohibition on alcohol in the Bible is Proverbs 31:4

    Now as good little Baptist children of course we were raised to never drink alcohol and were taught that of course Jesus would have never polluted his body with such horrible stuff. When we read the bible and saw Jesus drinking wine this was explained to us along the lines of,

    In Greek there is only one word for “the fruit of the vine” and it can mean fermented wine or unfermented grape juice. Of course Jesus would have never drunken fermented wine so he must have been drinking juice. One proof of this often given was Mark 15:23 where Jesus was on the cross and they gave him “wine mingled with myrrh” and he refused it. Obviously he refused it because he knew it was fermented (or contained other drugs, what is myrrh anyway, of course Jesus would have never taken drugs).

    At least that is what happened to me. Hey, if you want to believe this then go right ahead. The reality is that this is a bad argument with a foundation in the American temperance movement and legalistic society. Hey technically I live a dry county and we did have at least two moonshine raids last year that made the paper. If you want to believe that all alcohol is evil and want to justify it with the Bible then go ahead, but these are the kinds of arguments you are going to have to make and they are just not true. Personally, as much as I don’t want my kids drinking I can’t teach them this because I don’t believe its true and when they figure out I lied to them about this they will wonder what else I lied to them about.

    Although I do not feel that you can prove that Jesus did not drink fermented wine neither do I feel that anyone can prove biblically that he did. Givengrace, you mentioned “oinos” and that is the most popular Greek word translated “wine” in the Bible, but there are 4 others. “Gleukkos” (Strong’s #G1098) is another Greek word translated wine that appears to mean unfermented juice. The problem is it only occurs in scripture once. It is possible that oinos could refer to unfermented wine in some cases. Some verses like I Tim 3:8 leave no doubt that it refers to fermented wine but it is possible that some other verses refer to unfermented juice. Just because Jesus was accused of being a drunkard does not mean he actually drank anything.

    Now if you want to make the wine vs strong drink argument that is a different matter. The “strong drink” of the old testament is different from wine and was apparently made from grains, mainly barley. It could have been a distilled spirit or it could have been closer to modern beer. The strong drink in Luke 1:15 is another separate drink and was made from distilled fruit, vegetables, and honey. Strong drink in the Bible never refers to fermented wine but always to other alcoholic beverages. Some have argued that in biblical times the distillation process was not refined enough to make true distilled spirits but having seen and worked on some home made stills myself I can tell you it isn’t that hard.
     
  19. Jerome

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    Oddly, in the Lord's Supper passages in Scripture, the word wine is not used once:thumbs:
     
  20. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Unless of course you believe like I do that the “Last Supper” was not the Passover meal with the unleavened bread and the lamb but the feast of preparation that kicked off the Passover week. This would have been the meal where they ate all the leavened bread left in the house and also they would have drunk all the leavened or fermented wine.

    This of course matches a Wednesday crucifixion, the Passover Sabbath commencing at Sundown Wednesday, 3 days and nights in the tomb, and a resurrection sometime after dark on Saturday night.

    One reason I like this timeline for the last supper and crucifixion is that it means Jesus was dying on the cross at the exact same moment that Passover lambs were being slain throughout Judea. I guess that is an argument for another thread in a few months.
     

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