Jewish-Christian instead of Church?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Apr 14, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    I have long worked with Jewish-Christian groups (my background is Jewish). I hold conferences on Prophecy, Daniel, Passover, etc. A great joy. These are all organized "churches", though with a distinctive Jewish flavor of worship.

    Now a group of Christian Jews that is NOT a "church" and has no desire to be one has contacted me.

    Jesus broke down the racial/ethnic partitions between Jew/Gentile and made them all one body. Why would we revert back to the separate services? Why would we have some Jewish worship groups NOT becoming a church and following NT guidelines for church?

    Raising some interesting questions in my mind and hard decisions to make. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Jim1999

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    My answer will be no solution for you. There is only one Christian; one that is twice born; there is only one church; the Israel of God.

    It is my opinion that all of these groups, however well meaning, are alien to the Word. Whilst I have great respect for those who minister to the Jews only, I believe they are wrong when they set up a congregation alien to what the New Testament clearly declares the body of Christ.

    Then, in my scheme of things, there is no more Israel as a promise in some mythical future kingdom. The state we now know as Israel is just that, another country in the world. The future covenant promises apply to the Israel of God; the church.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Abiyah

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    Perhaps I do not understand your post. Are they
    a synagogue or shul, or are they merely
    separatists?

    With your background, you have probably read
    much on such websites as that of the UMJC and
    those which come under its umbrella. Many of
    them are separatists, and some even have signs
    on their doors saying "Jews Only."
     
  4. Farley

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    Galatians 3
    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  5. Tim

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    The epistle to the Hebrews (note ethnicity) said those believers were come to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23). That seems to answer the question to me.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  6. chargrove

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    Bob,

    Have you ever used the word "church" around an informed Messianic Jew? They don't use it, and I can see their point. It all goes back to that word and its pagan origin hailing from the name of the "goddess" Circe, which was adapted to the Greek word which means "called out" by Christians who were attempting to make worship services and buildings more easily accessible to converted pagans. "Circe" became "church" in the NT, even though the Septuigant uses the exact same word in the OT and it is translated differently.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    I have and the Jewish-believers (big group south of you in Waxahatchie and another we visited regularly in Plano at Temple Beth Sar Shalom - we lived in Dallas) were all trying to retain all the JEWISH rituals, rites and totally IGNORING the CHURCH side - baptism, elder, deacons, etc.

    The present group is acting as if "they are spiritual" since they are following Jewish ways, while regular run-of-the-mill baptist churches are second class. THAT attitude bothers me; an elitism based on a false dichotomy.
     
  8. DHK

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    1Cor.10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
    Paul mentions three groups of people in the New Testament: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God. When a Jew got saved, he was no longer a Jew. He became a Christian and left his Judaism behind. Remember Saul, and how he persecuted the church of God. The persecution didn’t stop when Saul became Paul. Whenever Jews converted to Christianity they were shunned by their families and persecuted for their faith. They left their Judaism behind and embraced Christianity. Likewise the Gentiles: in the same way they left their paganism and became Christians. Now, both Jew and Gentile were one in Christ. There was no Jewish church, and there was no Gentile church. There were many local churches, some of which had mostly members of a Jewish background like the church at Jerusalem, and some of which had mostly members of a Gentile background like the church at Corinth. But in each church there was equality between Jew and Gentile. There was no such thing as a Jewish church. Paul sought to put that concept to rest, when he said that we are one in Christ.
    DHK
     
  9. HankD

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    On the other hand Dr Bob...

    1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
    22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

    You have a wonderful opportunity to help mature these messianic believers to embrace their gentile brethren.

    HankD
     
  10. chargrove

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    Then they are professing to embrace the new covenant while outwardly ignoring it. This type of Messianic Judaism is thus UNBIBLICAL and should be rejected outright. Always speak truth to things which are false.
     
  11. Abiyah

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    So, basically, is this what is being said here?

    That Torah-observant and Messianic groups
    should leave their synagogues and shuls,
    completely rejecting their traditions, and take up
    Christian traditions instead? That we should stop
    our mode of baptism and embrace the traditional
    Christian one? That we should neglect our
    multiple-pastor concept for the Christian single-
    pastor tradition? Has it been considered that
    some may have deacons but call them
    shameshim?
     
  12. chargrove

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    Not suggesting that the way of conducting services or naming things and posts should change. Condemning an elitist attitude is more accurate, if indeed it exists as the good pastor suggests. There is no longer Jew and Gentile under Christ Jesus.
     
  13. HankD

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    Dear Char,

    You said

    Which then is the elitist, we or they?

    HankD

    [ April 15, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  14. chargrove

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    My only response would be the evidence presented in the Scriptures. Paul was a divinely appointed apostle of Christ who laid the framework for church structure and condemned, among others, extreme Judaizers. Why, then, if we believe Scripture to be divinely inspired, would a group of people ignore these instructions?
     
  15. time like this

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    WHY DID THIS GROUP OF JEWS CONTACT YOU? THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE A "CHURCH" BUT ARE THEY MEETING AS AN ASSMBLY IN THE NAME OF JESUS?
     
  16. Abiyah

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    Char --

    So Jews, and those who worship with them, are
    now judaizers? Wow! It is also a funny
    Christianese-English word -- one which Paul did
    not use, nor did he use one which translates to that
    word. I could possibly call you a christianizer,
    which, to us, would be just as distasteful as the
    Christian world has made "judaizer" to be.

    To us, a christianizer is one who wants us to be rid
    of Jewish traditions and to take up such practices
    as Christmas, Easter, Lent, Christian comunion,
    etc. We rarely use the term, seeing it as
    derrogatory in that context; however, Christians
    toss about the term "judaizer" very freely in
    accusation.

    We serve the same God, I assume. I suggest that
    you be a little more gentle with your spiritual
    brothers and sisters; you're going to have to
    spend eternity with us and our Messiah. He'll be
    wearing tzitzit, and you will probably be eating
    kosher!

    8o)
     
  17. rlvaughn

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    Abiyah, I am curious as to your grouping "Christian communion," which is recorded in the Bible as instituted by our Lord, with traditional observances as Christmas, Easter, and Lent. Does your group not believe in observing communion? Or do you have a "Jewish communion"? You also mentioned "our mode of baptism" in another thread. How does the mode of your group vary from that commonly practiced by Baptists? I have not had much exchange with you on the Baptist Board, but understand that you are Jewish. Does your group make a distinction between what you observe as "Jewish traditions" and what you observe as New Testament commandments? Or are they placed on the same level? Or do you look at it some other way? Some on the board may be familiar with your practice, but others of us are not. Thanks.
     
  18. time like this

    time like this
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    Why does the church celebrate easter instead of passover.
     
  19. Abiyah

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    8oD Beats me!
     
  20. chargrove

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    I would also be interested in knowing more about what Messianic Jewish believers practice. I cannot, however, justify why any person, Jewish or otherwise, would still feel compelled to participate in the Passover without making the central focus of this ritual the fact that Christ fulfilled and completed it ONCE AND FOR ALL. He WAS the fulfillment of the the unblemished lamb. It was Christ who fulfilled the celebrated entry into Jerusalem, went into the house of YHWH and taught for four days and was found to be perfect and without flaw, was given as a sacrifice for our sins, down to every last detail. Praise God.
     

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