Jews vs Christians

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. OldRegular

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    When God called Abraham He made the following promise:

    Genesis 12:1-3
    1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


    Some Dispensationalists believe that God is still bound by this promise.

    Jesus Christ said of those who follow Him:

    John 10:27-29
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.


    John 17:9-17
    9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
    14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


    Now lets assume that there is a substantial disagreement [and there frequently is] between a Jew and a Christian.

    Is the Christian subject to the wrath of God?
     
  2. Pastor Larry

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    The question is, Why don't you? Do you believe God lied here?


    No. What's your point? Do you have one?
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    Pastor Larry,

    OldRegular ask:

    You ask:
    I understand OldRegular's point of question. Whilst myself was dispensationalist before. Dispensationalism interprets Gen. 12:1-3 talking about Jews shall possess the land that they will own it in the Millennial Kingdom. They mean that, Jews shall possess literal physical land.

    First of all. Gen. 12:1-3 do not saying anything of "one thousand years".

    Also, there is misunderstanding or confusion on O.T. prophecies, for example, many believe passages of O.T. prophecies speaking of second advent or millennial kingdom. But, many passages in O.T. prophecies were mostly already fulfilled at first advent, not second advent. Even, also many passages in O.T. prophecies were already fulfilled within O.T. period, not at first advent.

    I want to tell you on two passages of Gen. 12:1-3 and Gen. 15:18.

    We have to be carefully when we read and interpreting it. Which verse is telling literal or spiritual.

    Many of us agree that Gen. 15:8, God did make pronise with Abraham that his seed shall posses land from the river of Egypt to Euphrate River, which is speaking of literal physical land.

    But, both dispensationalism and covenant theologianism are disagree on the timing of Gen. 15:8. Dispensationalism believes Gen. 15:8 will be fulfill in Millennial Kingdom that, Jews will finally posses their own land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River. Covenant theologism believes Gen. 15:8 was already fulfilled within Old Testament period long before first advent.

    I agree with covenant theologism is right.

    Firstly, Gen. 15:8 say nothing of 'one thousand years'.

    Secondly, we have to read THROUGHOUT whole Old Testament books before we get arrive New Testament. While we reading throughout O.T. carefully, you should be able to find passages within O.T. that Israel did actual possesed land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River already fulfilled during reign of King David and also King Solomon too.

    In Joshua 1:3-4 "Every place that the sole mof your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hitties, and unto the great sea toward the going don of the sun, shall be your coast."

    God promised Joshua that, he shall possess land from Mediterranean Sea to Euphrates River.

    So, Joshua took God's promise with faith. Joshua obeyed God's commandments. Joshua's army fought their enemeies, and did took over cities and land for many years. Finally, in Joshua 21:43 says, "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto fathers, and they possessed it, and dwelt therein."

    Notice it said, "ALL the land", It means that God did promised with fathers since from Abraham to Moses, then to Joshua that Israel shall possess land from river of Egypt to Euphrates Rivera. And finally Israel did actual possessed whole land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River. It was fulfilled in Joshua's time during year around 1000 to 900 B.C.

    It fulfilled Gen. 15:8 in Joshua's time, not supposed unfufilled promise till millennial kingdom.

    Now back to Gen. 12:1-3, this passage seem speaking God's promise with Abraham for possess whole physical land-nation. But, this is speaking of spiritual nation which is salvation in Christ Jesus.

    In Galatians 3:14 tells us clearly, "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the GENTILES through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    also look above -Gal. 4:8 says, "And the scriptures, forseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall 'all nations be blessed'."-It fulfilled in Gen. 12:1-3.

    We should be aware that Abraham, himself was a Gentile before God called him out of land of Ur.

    There was no "Jews" during time between from Adam to Abraham for about 1,300 to 1,400 years. That's pretty stretch longer time before Abraham became 'Jew'.

    Therefore, Abraham is the Father of Gentiles, not just for "Jews only", in other word, He is the father of all nations include Israel(modern Jewish nation), whosever believe in Jesus Christ- salvation.

    I better stop now. This post is already long. I better make another post to continue discuss.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

    In 2 Samuel 8:3 says: "David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates."

    King David already did possessed land reached at Euphrates River.

    Also, in 1 Chronicles 18:3 says: "And David smote Hadarezer king of Zobah unto Hamath, as he went to stablish his dominion by the river Euphrates."

    This verses telling us, King David did reigning from Jerusalem toward Euphrates River.


    p.s. (1:06 a.m.) Oooops! I made mistake typed this post, because, I was doing edit it. But I decide to leave this post. I hope that you understand what I am talking about.
     
    #3 DeafPosttrib, Dec 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008
  4. Pilgrimer

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    That's a terrible thing to say to a fellow Christian. Why can't these discussons be carried on without all the insults and accusations?

    Abraham did inherit a land, and his descendants did become a great nation, and through Abraham the families of the earth have been blessed . . . through Abraham has come the Savior of the world!

    What do you think God meant when he said that through Abraham the nations of the earth would be blessed? That they would be blessed by being ruled over by a Jewish state?

    In Christ,
    Pilgrimer
     
    #4 Pilgrimer, Dec 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Perhaps you should relax. There was no insult. It was a simple question. Why doesn't he believe it? Does he believe God lied?

    Which is great, but that's not the full promise. The promise was that Abraham's descendants would inherit the land forever (Gen 17:8), in peace (Jer 31:40, et al). That is a promise that was made to Abraham and repeated multiple times throughout the OT including the post-exilic prophets.

    Do you believe it?

    Partially the gospel, but other things as well, according to the OT.

    That is certainly a part of the promise: Zechariah 8:21-23 'The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I will also go." 22 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

    And I could quote others.

    I am increasingly convinced that many people don't know the OT very well.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, and with good reason.

    So?

    No doubt, but there are also promises that have not been fulfilled.

    Yes, the problem is that you have no consistent way to determine this. You look at your theology first, and then at the Scriptures.

    Two problems. 1) There is no OT reference to the fulfillment of this promise. The closest it gets is during the time of Solomon when Israel rules over land to the “border of Egypt,” not the “River of Egypt.” Furthermore, at no time did Israel actually live in and possess the land. They simply ruled over it. 2) The promise was made “forever” (Gen 17:8, and many many more). That does not mean “for eternity” but the word means for a very long period of time. That has never been fulfilled.

    Again, this is irrelevant. No biblical passage gives full revelation on anything.

    Then find them.

    Nothing there about the River of Egypt.

    Again, no. That’s simply not what the text says.

    This is a serious error. Joshua’s time was about 1400 B.C. David and Solomon were 1000-900 B.c.

    It fulfilled Gen. 15:8 in Joshua's time, not supposed unfufilled promise till millennial kingdom.

    Notice how you admit what the passage is talking about but then, because of your theology, say it must be talking about something else. You should see the problems with that. The passage means what it says. You were doing better when you tried to make it fulfilled in the OT times (though that was obviously flawed). But trying to make it spiritual salvation is worse. The text says nothing of that.

    Yes, the blessing. Not the seed or the land. There were three parts of that promise. Furthermore, there were a lot of blessings on the Gentiles prior to Christ (cf. Joseph).
     
  7. Jim1999

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    I sure hope people are not trying to equate the modern country of Israel with the biblical Israel of old, those chosen of God to convey the redeeming graces of God.

    The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the new Israel, the church, and we are redeemed by His grace, and not an allegiance to a certain country or even a people,namely the Jews. There is no support for some mythical parenthesis in the plan of God. Biblical history is continuous. It is not stop gap.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Me too because the modern nation of Israel is disobedient. Only when they repent will they be restored to the promises God made.

    But the Bible does not say this, and that is why we must reject it. At no place is the church said to be Israel or equated with Israel. At no place is the AC said to be fulfilled in the church. In fact, Gal 3 says just the opposite, that the promises were not annulled because of disobedience. that means the promises are still good.

    This is certainly true.

    Yes, well said. The problem for you is that you don't continue the Bible all the way through. You stop it at the church and leave a multitude of God's promises unfulfilled.

    Let me ask you this, Jim. When do you think the following verse was/is/will be fulfilled:

    Zechariah 8:22-23 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
     
  9. Jim1999

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    Zechariah 8:22-23 'So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.' 23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
    -----------------------------------ten men,,not a literal ten men, but an indefinite number as so in Lev 22:26...Grasping the garment of a Jew referring to the ribbon that hung from the skirt of the Jew in those times. Israel was deemed to be he superior peoples of God and grasping this ribbon was evidence of what those other peoples believed. The people wanted to go with the Jews, weak as they were at the time, but it was believed salvation was in the Jewish temple and nation. That nation is continued in the New Testament body of believers and the completed promise in the Kingdom of God by Christ sitting at the right hand of God the Father on David's throne, as it were, fulfilling the promises to Israel; the church of Jesus Christ. This is where peoples of all nations may come and find redemption in Him.

    I translate te Old in light of the New and not the reverse. Everything in the Old makes reference to the Church to come; the kingdom of God. The looked forward to a redeeming Messiah, and we look back to a cross of redeeming grace in the person of Jesus, the Christ.

    Best I can do off the top of my head.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    But this is in Zechariah, written in 520 B.C., and it is future. So the question remains, when is this fulfilled?

    But this is not what the text says, and nothing in the NT would lead us to believe this if we did not already assume it.

    That's an incorrect way to do it, really. Until you know what the OT means, you can't understand how the NT uses it.

    Which? The church or the Kingdom of God? The Bible teaches that these are two different things. In fact, the NT teaches that the KOG is future when Christ returns (2 Tim 4:1). The church si never said to be the kingdom. Part of the problem is that, as you say, you start with the NT. But if you start with the OT, and what it says about the KOG, it becomes easier to understand the NT.

    They looked forward to much more, including the fulfillment of the kingdom promises.

    If you read the Zechariah passage in its context, I think you will see that what you said doesn't fit the passage. And I could multiply these examples over and over and over again.

    Maybe someone else will take a stab at it.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Every prophecy ever made was or will be fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Not in the physical sense (although the new heaven and earth will be physical), but in the spiritual sense.

    I cannot see in all of scripture where Jews are superior in any way to Christians and will rule over them. For from two, one new man has been created in Christ Jesus.

    This was God's plan from the foundation of the world, the redemption of man through Christ, using Israel as the means through which He would come.



    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


    How can the Kingdom be "within you" if it is future?
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Read the context. How can it be "within you" if you are a Christ rejecting Pharisee? That is who Christ was talking to, so it is obvious that he did not mean some kind of internal kingdom. He meant that the Kingdom was "in their midst" as the NASB says.

    When Christ was on earth, he brought the kingdom type stuff with it. You had great outpouring of miracles, healings, and the like. That was what christ was talking about. The Pharisees were looking for the kingdom and trying to say (like some here) that it didn't exist as was prophesied. Jesus simply says, "Look around you."
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    What exactly does this mean?
     
  15. Allan

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    It is both Amy.

    If you have a hard time with that question then this one will stump you as well

    How can you be saved now, and yet scritpure speaks also of our salvation yet future (look up the phrase "shall be saved")?

    If we are saved now how can it be something future. Because in the future we will "see" the fully what is not currently able to be "seen". We walk by faith and not sight. But one day we shall see sister and what a glorious sight to behold :)
     
  16. Amy.G

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    It means that the whole Bible is about Christ. Everything written is for the purpose of revealing a Savior.
     
  17. Havensdad

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    My friend, you invent a separation between Israel and the Church that is not there. Not only is Israel the Church, Israel has ALWAYS been the Church. Even in the Old Testament, t refers to the "assembly": cross referenced to the Septuagint, we see the same word used: Ekklesia

    Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Notice that Peter is an Ethnic Jew. Jews and Gentiles are equal, non distinct parts of God's Church, a.k.a Israel. This has ALWAYS been true.

    According to the Bible, all of the literal land promises were fulfilled.

    Jos 21:45 Not one word of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.

    To quote someone else on this board: "Do you believe God lied here?" Was it ALL the promises, or just "some"?

    I believe the Bible. All the promises made had been fulfilled.

    I am not Jim. But the verse does not say "Ten men will each grab a 'different' Jew. It says men from all nations will grab ONE (a) Jew: Jesus Christ, the Messiah. This is not some racist mentality, where one person is placed above another because of the color of their skin! The Bible says their is "no distinction".

    More:
    It is not just the "blessings" we inherit, as you claim. Scripture DIRECTLY refutes what you have claimed, that we are not seed of Abraham. We are now literally considered seed of Abraham.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

    Also, Israel was NEVER confined to those who were literal descendants of Abraham...

    How do you answer these verses?

    Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, (not everyone in "ethnic" Israel is "true" Israel)

    Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." (Not everyone in true "Israel" is actually descended from Abraham)

    Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    This does not say "You get to share in some of the blessings"! It says we are "counted as offspring"! We ARE Israel! We have not "replaced" them, we are a part of them. We are grafted into Israel, not "grafted into some of the Blessings". All of the Old Testament promises, which have not been fulfilled (those made after Jos 21) apply equally to us. Both we, as well as "ethnic Israel" (and every other ethnic group) grab hold of a Jew (Jesus) and say "we know that God is with you"..
     
  18. Amy.G

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    I don't understand your interpretation, sorry.

    The Kingdom of God is here right now, in believers through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father. You are doing the same thing the Jews did. You are looking for a physical kingdom, when Jesus taught the Kingdom was spiritual, but would one day be physical (new heaven and new earth).

    Now I know you probably think I've been taking Amil lessons from someone, but this is what I see in the scriptures. And this after having been taught for YEARS the pre-trib/pre-mil view.
     
  19. Allan

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    Amy, who other than Old Reg, has made any such statements that the Jews will "rule over Christians". We (the church) shal rule with Christ but they shall also rule or better be partakers in leading though lower than us. Much like our government. We have the President (Christ) as well as the Senate and Congress.
    Both groups are ruling but one has more authority and power than the other. So it will be in the MK.


    You verse of neither Jew or Gentile is not referencing the MK but salavation. And yes, we are all one but that does not negate the fact that we have different functions or purposes. take the Church for instance. We are all one in Christ so does that mean that everyone is a pastor or that every has all the same giftings? Why not? We are all one in Christ aren't we?

    Just giving you something to think about is all. Not trying to argue per-say.
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Yes. I think we can agree on that. But to say that there is no Kingdom now, I think is a wrong interpretation.


    (You need to put up a new pic. I want to see all those babies!) :)
     

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