Jn 6:45 "all" = "every man" = come unto me

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    In verse 45 Jesus further explains what it means for the Father to "draw" a person to him. It involves personal one on one instruction by the Father so that the person drawn has both "heard" and "learned" of the Father. Thus the person that has been drawn by the Father has been taught by the Father and teaching is impossible apart from having both "heard" and "learned" of the Father. Hence, "taught" = having heard and having learned. If one has not "heard" and has not "learned" they have not been taught by the Father.

    Now, the question is HOW is this personal instruction conducted? Jesus denies that it is a VISIBLE circucstance where the one who has been taught visibly sees the Father:

    46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    So this instruction is invisible and conducted WITHIN the one being taught by the Father.

    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - 1 Jn. 2:27


    What is it that the one being taught has "heard" and hath "learned" of the Father? We believe it is the internal revelation of the knowledge of God in the Person of Jesus Christ that results in eternal llife so that the one taught is "raised up" to the resurrecction of life in the last day:

    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    God Himself reveals His Son inside this person by a creative act:

    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.- 2 Cor. 4:6

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. - Mt 16:17

    Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood
    :

    How many of those who have been taught this way by God come to Jesus Christ in faith?

    Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    NONE taught/drawn by the Father fail to come in faith to the Son. "EVERY MAN" thus taught/drawn "cometh unto me"

    This means that the "him" that is drawn in verse 44 = the "him" that is raised up to the resurrection of life.

    This means that "ALL" the Father gives to the Son "OF ALL" none fail to come to the Son (v. 37) and "OF ALL" that come to the Son "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" (v. 39). Thus coming to the Son MUST mean coming in faith to the Son because Christ does not raise up unbeleivers in the resurrection of life.

    This means that "ALL" the Father gives to the Son are "ALL" taught/drawn by God = meaning God reveals the Son IN THEM by a creative act that causes them to believe in Christ because "EVERY MAN" thus taught by God "cometh unto me" in faith.

    This is irrefutable as the only way to escape this conclusion is to deny or pervert Christ's words.

    CONCLUSION Jesus explains what it means to be drawn by the Father in verse 45. It means that the Father personally instructs a person, not visibly (v. 46) but invisibly within that person so that they have "heard" and "learned" from the Father. What they have "learned" and "heard" from the Father is what brings them to a savining knowledge of Jesus Christ so that they "come unto me' in faith. EVERY MAN that the Father teaches in this manner "cometh unto me." That means this drawing is always effectual to the saving a person. In context, ALL the Father gives to Christ do come unto him (vv. 37) so that NONE given are lost (v. 39). Drawing/teaching by the Father is the means that accomplishes this end result. All those given are all taught by the Father so that they all come to the Son in faith. This is irresistable grace, effectual calling and eternal security "OF ALL" and "EVERY MAN" both given and taught by the Father.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jul 24, 2013
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  2. convicted1

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    I agree............
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    To simply this OP, I have proven by the immediate context that Christ defines the nature of drawing by the Father to be internal revelation by God so that a person both hears and learns of Christ and that "every man" thus taught comes to Christ in faith. This internal revelation is a creative act by God whereby He speaks light of knowlege into existence within the darknessness of the unregenerated mind (2 Cor. 4:6 with Eph. 4;18).
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    In another thread (now closed) I made this assessment of the two different positions concerning "faith" and how it is perceived to originate by two opposing views:

    The problem that no one has yet rightly addressed is that the fallen human nature will not believe or come to Christ by faith (Rom. 8:7-8) as it is in a state of war and resistance. Hence, faith in Christ is not something that can originate with fallen man due to man's nature. Here lies the problem with common faith that lost people exercise every day in regard to many other things.

    Arminians who acknowledge total depravity admit that a special work of the Holy Spirit is necessary to deal with this impasse of the fallen nature. Hence, they argue that some kind of enablement occurs when the gospel is preached that provides the freedom of the fallen man to come to Christ.

    Hence we both agree that some kind of enablement occurs due to intervention by God in some way so that the will is freed from its bondage to sin to come to Christ.

    However, it is the nature of that enablement that divides us. We say that enablement is the work of God in giving and drawing a person to Christ which is always effectual while in other cases it is "worldly sorrow" that results in denial or false professions.

    We say that the ability of fallen man to come to Christ by faith is due to the direct word of command by God (Rom. 10:17 "rhema") that creates a beleiving heart within his elect (2 Cor. 4:6; Ezek. 26:26-27; 2 Cor. 3:3) in connection with the preaching of the gospel (1 Thes. 1:4-5).


    Revmitchell agreed with this assessment with the exception to the use of "Arminian" and of course my view of it.

    That being said, I believe that I have offered evidence from John 6:45 that repudiates the view held by those who side with Revmitchell. That evidence is how Jesus defines "draw" in verse 45 to be that act of the Father that causes a person to hear and learn of Jesus Christ by INTERNAL revealtion or teaching by the Father so that "EVERY MAN" who has heard and learned of the Father in this mannner does come to Christ by faith.

    This is the Biblical answer to how faith is derived within a fallen man. It is the work of God and it is effectual in that "EVERY MAN' not merely SOME but "EVERY MAN" thus taugth do in fact "cometh unto me" in faith.

    This internal revelation by God is "the light of knowledge" created by God by direct command as explicitly stated by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:6 in relationship with the preaching of the gospel:

    5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
    7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


    This is how faith comes in Romans 10:17 by "hearing" that God provides in John 6:45 ("hath heard") by the word of command ("rhema" - Rm. 10:17).
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013
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  5. Van

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    Yet another completely bogus thread, where 2 + 2 is said to equal 5.

    1) No man can come to Me unless drawn by the Father. This does not say all men that are drawn come to me.

    2) Who will God raise up? Those drawn or those that come to Me? Those that come to Me is the answer.

    3) Who are the "they," who are "all" of the "they?" Those that come to Me!

    4) Therefore:
    a) No one comes to Me unless drawn by the Father
    b) Those that come to Me were drawn by the Father
    c) Not all that were drawn both heard and learned from the Father.
    d) Those that did hear and learn come to Me. ​

    Calvinism rewrites scripture after scripture to pour falsehood into the text.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Apparently you did not read the OP because that is exactly what verse 45 does say - "EVERY MAN" thus taught by the Father comes to Christ. Not SOME but "EVERY MAN". Jesus defines what he means by "draw" in verse 45 and its is to be "taught" by the Father and "EVERY MAN" thus taught or that has "heard" from the Father and "learned" from the Father does in fact come to Christ.

    More evidence you either did not read the OP or simply ignored the evidence provided in the OP. Drawn is defined in verse 45 as those being "taught" by the Father and "EVERY MAN" thus drawn/taught does come to the Son. NONE come to Christ that are not taught/drawn.

    They are "EVERY MAN" who has "heard" and "learned" from the Father, which is how Christ defines "draw" - "EVERY MAN" thus taught does come to Christ.



    So far so good!

    FALSE! You say "Not all" but Christ says "EVERY MAN"! Who shall we believe your words which are not found in verse 45 or Christ's words which are found in verse 45???

    a. NO man can come to Christ but those drawn - v. 44
    b. Drawing by the Father is defined as being "taught" by God - v. 45a
    c. Taught by God means "heard" and "learned" as none can be taught that do neither hear or learn. - v. 45b
    d. EVERY MAN thus taught/drawn by the Father comes to Christ - v. 45b
    e. ALL DRAWN ALL COME no exceptions.


    That is not what the scriptures say Van! Christ says "EVERY MAN" taught which defines "draw" comes to Christ. If a man neither hears or learns they have never been TAUGHT by God or anyone else as NO MAN can come to Christ who has NEVER HEARD and NEVER LEARNED of the Father , but "EVERY MAN" who has been taught (heard, learned) , comes to Christ without exception.

    Who substitued "Not all" for "EVERY MAN" - YOU DID!
    Who substitued "THOSE" for "EVERY MAN""? - YOU DID!

    So don't tell me that Calvinism rewrites scripture when we have black and white evidence from your own post that you REJECTED the words of Christ and REPLACED them by your own words.
     
  7. Van

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    Folks it is very clear someone (Van or Biblicist) cannot read objectively.

    Here is the scripture, (NASB) Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

    Does this say everyone who was drawn? Nope. It limits the everyone who comes to those who have both heard and learned.

    Logically the passage reads like this,

    1) No one comes to Me unless they have been drawn by the Father,

    2) All that do come to Me were drawn by the Father.

    3) All that come to Me shall be raised up on the last day.

    4) They (those who are raised up) are all taught of God.

    5) Therefore being drawn is not defined as being taught.

    6) Being taught is defined as having both heard and learned from the Father.

    In reverse order the passage says,


    a) All that comes to Me have both heard, and learned (i.e. taught) from the Father.

    b) All that come to Me will be raised up on the last day.

    c) All that come to Me were drawn by the Father.​

    Bottom line, the Calvinist view rewrites the passage and applied the "they" to being drawn rather than being raised up or coming to Me.

    Just read the passage folks, the truth is evident.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    It refers to "ALL" taught by God in the previous clause which is the quotation of Isaiah 54:13. How many were "taught"?? ANSWER: "ALL"! The words "every man" is a translation of the exact same Greek term translated "ALL" in the scripture quotation!

    Can "ALL" be taught if "ALL" have not "heard" what is taught? No! Can "all" be taught if they have not "learned" what is taught? No! So "EVERY MAN" thus "taught" comes to Christ and "ALL" are taught!


    Incomplete and thus inaccurate. "No man can come unto me except the father draw HIM; and HIM will I raise up at the last day" Who is the "him" he raises up at the last day? The contet only supplies the "him" that is drawn and supplies NO OTHER "him." Van READS INTO THE TEXT (eisgesis) another "him" that is not mentioned.

    Another perversion of the text as the text says no such thing! The "him" drawn" is the ONLY "him" in the text that can be raised up and that is why there is no other prequalificaitons added but simple repetition of the same "him" in the second clause. Van ADDS prequalifications by saying "all that do come" when the text sticks to the singular "him" that is enabled to come by drawing is the "him" that is raised.


    Another perversion and re-wording of the text. The text does not say "They" or "those who are raised up" but it says "ALL" and it is the object of the verb "taught" which demands every single one is taught by God and NONE can be taught by God who have not "heard" and "learned" but ALL who have "heard' and "learned" come to Christ in faith

    5
    Another perversion of the text and context. Van draws this conclusion ONLY because he ignores that "him" in the second clause of verse 44 cannot be any one other than the "him" drawn in the first clause of verse 44. In addition he reads into the verse a PLURAL noun in order that he can distinguish between ALL those drawn from "him" that is raised up as though ALL those drawn are not "him" that is raised. This is simply eisgesis pure and simple.

    Correct, and none of "ALL" in the Isaiah quotation fail to hear, learn and come to Christ.



    Wrong!

    1. All that come to me have both heard and learned of the Father.

    2. ALL that have learned and heard of the Father are "ALL" that the Father taught.

    3. All that the Father taught are individually considered the "him" raised up at the last day.

    4. Him that is raised up at the last day is only "Him" drawn by the Father.​
     
  9. Van

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    No need to repeat your mistaken view.

    1) No need to address the strawman argument: everyone refers to those who heard and leaned. All of them who heard and learned. Not the issue at all.

    2) The "him" refers to those who come to Me, because all who come to Me will be raised up. So again an effort to rewrite and apply "him" to those drawn, rather than those who come.

    3) Nothing I wrote was incomplete or inaccurate. You provided no evidence to support the mistaken charge.

    4) Next, inserting yet another strawman, the Calvinist claims all that come to Me were drawn by the Father is not in the text. But it is true. If no one comes unless drawn, then everyone that comes was drawn. To deny this is simply silly.

    5) The text (John 6:45) uses a Greek word which is translated as (G2071)"they shall be." All the versions I checked include "they" in the translated text.

    6) The reason being drawn does not equate with coming to Me spiritually is because this passage says no such thing. The first "him" of John 6:44 refers to those coming to Me, and the second "him" refers to those who will be raised up on the last day.

    Calvinism is based on shoddy bible study as demonstrated by the mistaken views presented by Calvinists in this thread.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Look how Van freely rejects the words Jesus used and replace them with his own words. He must, as that is the only way he can force the text to fit his theolog.

    First, he poses his question by treating the verse in reverse order by asking who (singular) will God raise up? He then inserts a PLURAL into his answer "those" in order to avoid the only answer provided by Jesus in the first clause which is the singular "him" that is drawn being the same singular "him" that comes being the singular "him" that is raised up. However, the intentional insertion of the plural is designed to create the illustion that more are drawn then actually come or are raised up. This is intentional perversion of Christ's words simply to make it fit his theology.

    Second, he repudiates the cause and effect order in the verse between draw and come. Instead he places them on an equal level "drawn OR...come" thus denying the cause and consequential order. Comiing is the consequence of being drawn and ONLY "him" drawn actually comes and no others. Thus only "him" that comes can possibly be "him" that is raised up as Christ does not raise up unbelievers to life eternal. Again, another intentional perversion of Christ's words simply to make it fit his theology.

    CONCLUSION: Who is it that is raised up to life? The same "him" that is drawn as that is the only "him" that can come to Christ and therefore can only be the same "him" which is raised up. However, Van's theology requires him to insert a plural at some point in his explanation/interpretation in order to create the allusion that more are drawn than actually come and are raised up.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Clever! Don't quote my words but comment on them so no one can see how you misreprsent what I have said.

    Another perversion of the text. The text does not say "All of them who heard" because NONE did not hear because "ALL" were taught by God. So the wording does not provide for ANY EXCEPTIONS but your wording does.

    Here is the evil of your perversion of Christ's words. That is precisely why you take the verse in reverse order to avoid the cause versus effect order in this text. NONE come but "him" drawn and so it is the 'HIM" drawn that comes. None are raised up but the "Him' which comes which is "him" drawn. You rewrite the text by REPLACING "him" with the words "all who come" in order to create the false allusion that more are drawn than actually come. However, the singular "him" is the only "him" that comes and therefore can be the only "him" that is raised up. Readers, follow the cause and effect relationship by beginning where Christ begins in the verse and stick with his singular choice of "him" throughout this cause and consequence relationship and that totally repudiates Van's interpretation.

    It most certainly does mean that because the cause and consequence order provided in the text demands that. NONE can come but "HIM" drawn thus it is ONLY "Him" drawn that comes. Who is raised up? "HIM" that comes which is "HIM" that is drawn. NONE are drawn who do not come because the cause and consequence relationship with the singular "him" demand that. Period!


    That is not the issue. The issue is that "they" equal "all" which again equal "every man"! There is no greater group from which only "they" are taught but others are not. However, that is the implication of your words.

    Here is the outright perversion of the text! The "him" drawn is the ONLY POSSIBLE "him" that can come to Christ and be raised up to life as NONE else can come. Hence, the only "Him" raised MUST BE the "him" drawn as NONE else can "come to me."
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Jul 26, 2013
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  12. Van

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    Hi Biblicist, I see no need to quote and requote and requote you same bogus arguments.

    1) Why quote "another perversion of the text?"

    2) Here is the text:
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

    3) The text does say "they shall all be taught" and then says everyone who has heard and learned. Thus equating hearing and learning with being taught. This is not a perversion of the text, it is simply stating what the text actually says.

    4) Who will the Father raise up? Those that come to Me!

    5) Who comes to Me, everyone who has heard and learned, i.e. been taught by the Father.

    6) Next we have the "him drawn" silliness.
    a) No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him. "Him" refers to the ones that are drawn and come to Me.
    b) Who will the Father raise up? The the drawn ones who comes to Me. The ones who will not be cast out. The ones given to Me.
    c) Thus the one who hears, and learns and thus believes in Me shall have eternal life and be raised up on the last day. It is a lock.​
     
    #12 Van, Jul 27, 2013
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  13. Van

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    A Calvinism fallacy explained. No one can enter and buy a book, except if the owner opens the bookstore. Does that mean everyone who enters buys a book? No. It means everyone who enters has the opportunity to learn about a book and then buy it.

    Calvinism sees the word "draw" and reads it as saying irresistibly compelled. But the word is used metaphorically to mean attract, i.e. to be drawn by lovingkindness. Thus when we see Christ demonstrating His love for us by dying for us on the cross, we are drawn to Christ. Not compelled to believe, i.e. some disruptor beam shoots out of Christ and rearranges our mind so we robotically believe, but enlightened with the gospel which we may accept, receive, take and make our own, hence drawn by beholding Christ high and lifted up.
     
    #13 Van, Jul 27, 2013
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  14. The Biblicist

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    A fallacious illustration because it is not exactly parallel with the words of Jesus.

    You should have said, "no person can come into the book store but the man that the owner allows in.

    Again, you READ INTO THE TEXT a plural that is drawn so you can give the allusion that more is drawn then actually come. There is no plural drawn but only the singular "him" and therefore none come but that "him" which is drawn. Another perverted and false analogy.

    Deal with the grammar and structure and leave your flawed illustrations and philsophy at the door.
     
  15. Winman

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    Exactly, this is what Biblicist is attempting to do, prove Irresistible Grace (quite unsuccessfully I might add) with the word "draw" in verse 44.

    Verse 44 says what it says, no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. But it does NOT say all who are drawn shall come. Biblicist is trying every trick in the book to twist scripture to say this, but it cannot be done.

    Proverbs 1 shows God calling to men with outstreached hands and yet they refuse and turn away, they did not CHOOSE (showing ability) the fear of the LORD.

    Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
    21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
    22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
    23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
    24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
    25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
    26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
    27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
    28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
    29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
    30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
    31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
    32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
    33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

    Here God calls to men repeatedly with outstretched hands. He promises if they will turn at his reproof he will pour out his spirit unto them and "make known" (teach) them his words.

    This is drawing, it is soliciting, it is enticing men. And we see that God promises to teach those who will turn and listen to him, but these men refused and did not "choose" the fear of the LORD. The word "choose" shows these men could have listened to God if they wanted to, and so refutes Total Inability.

    And in verse 33 we see what is explained in John 6:45, those who do listen to God and learn from him shall be saved.

    Biblicist's view is error and easily refuted.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    However, your very argument condemns your position as well. It does not say more than "him" that is drawn will come either! The burden of proof is on your position not mine for two simple reasons. The only "him" in the text that can possibly come is the "him" drawn. Second, the only "him" that can possibly be raised to life eternal is the "him" drawn.

    Those who oppose my exposition of this text must READ INTO this text "OF THEM" which are drawn by the Father only him that comes shall be raised to eternal life.

    The text not only does not say that, but it repudiates that idea. It denies any one can come to Christ except for "him" that is drawn. It is that same "him" drawn which is then promised to be raised again as there are no other options provided by the text but the "him" drawn.

    Jesus approaches this from a universal NEGATIVE "no man can" and then limits it to one possible exception to that universal negative - none but "him" drawn can come to the Father. Therefore, there are no other alternatives offered in the text but that ONE exception "him" which can be raised to eternal life.

    Indeed, this text repudiates the possibility that anyone but "him" drawn can come and "him" is singular not plural. Your position absolutely requires you to READ INTO the text the idea "OF THEM" that are drawn only "him" that comes will be raised up. But it says no such thing! Indeed, it repudiates that idea.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Jul 27, 2013
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  17. Winman

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    Correct, all that come to Jesus were drawn, this is what verse 44 says.

    Correct, only persons that are drawn can come.

    Yes, only those drawn can come, and only those who come are raised to eternal life, so yes, only those drawn can be raised to eternal life.

    And there is nothing in this context that says that ALL who are drawn come. It simply does not say that no matter how much you desire that it does. It is you that is reading into scripture, I am simply reading what is directly said and not adding to it. The verse says that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. That is ALL that it says. It does not say that ALL that are drawn come. It also does not say only SOME that are drawn come. This verse is silent about whether ALL or SOME of whom are drawn come. Therefore you must go to other scripture to determine this, and MUCH other scripture shows men are drawn but refuse to come.

    But you ARE reading into the text. It simply says that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. It does not mention whether ALL or SOME of whom are drawn come.

    It simply says that a person cannot come to Jesus unless he is drawn. It does not say whether all drawn come or not.

    It would be like receiving an invitation to a party at the White House. Only those who receive an invitation can come. Does this mean that everyone who receives an invitation will come? Not necessarily, some may choose not to come, or some may be unable to come.

    No man can come to this party unless he is invited. That does not mean all who are invited will come to the party.

    You can argue till you are blue in the face, your view is error and EASILY refuted.
     
    #17 Winman, Jul 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2013
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Notice again your use of the plural when the text uses only a singular. Try to use a singular and see how it works for your theory? Try saying "him" that is drawn is "him" who comes to Christ. See! It destroys your interpretation completley!

    Your interpetation demands a PLURAL POTENTAL drawn that can be REDUCED to a smaller number that comes. However, the singular "HIM" repudiates that attempt.










    Wrong! the universal SINGULAR negative "no man" denies that it is possible that any indivdiual can come to Christ but ONE singular exception - "him". The context offers no other alternative but the singular "him" drawn which comes to Christ and that is precisely why Jesus continues to use the same singular "him" as the only possible person to be raised to life eternal but the "him" drawn.

    The consistent singular repudiates any interpretation that there is a GREATER NUMBER drawn to Christ of which only a REDUCED number actually come to Christ.

    Proof? Is there any other "him" in the first clause that can come to Christ but the singular "him" drawn? No! Where can you get a PLURAL POTENTIAL from then that is drawn which do not come to Christ???
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
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    Using the singular "him" does not change a thing. The verse still says only the person drawn can come to Jesus. It says that person who comes to Jesus will be raised up at the last day.

    The verse still does not say the person drawn will come to Jesus. That person might, and that person might not come to Jesus, the verse does not say.

    You cannot win this debate, because your view is error. It doesn't matter how stubborn and obstinate you are, you cannot make verse 44 say what it does not say.
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The verse eliminates any other man provided in this text but this one exception that can come to Christ. Find any other alternative in this verse that can or will come to Christ and I will cease arguing. You can't! Precisely the purpose Jesus limited the noun and pronouns to the singular to rule out any other possibility. In the Father' work of giving he worded so that there is no possiblity to deny "all" drawn would fail to come to Christ or be lost. In the Father's work of teaching he worded so that there is no possibility that all taught would not come to Christ. He worded in the Father's work of drawing that "him" drawn" would be the only possible option to come to Christ and be raised.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jul 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2013

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