Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Your scene theory doesn't trump the wording in the text.


11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

It begs the question we interpret "the dead" as "the condemned" because their judgment hasn't happened yet and all in Death and Hades are "dead", whether condemned or not:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 12:2-3 NKJ)

Not all of "the dead" are condemned:
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (Joh 5:21 NKJ) Compare "God, who gives life to the dead" (Rom 4:17); "we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead" (2 Co 1:9); "Women received the dead raised to life again" (Heb 11:35).

Confirming this is a judgment of the sheep and the goats is the open book of life. It is not a list of names only:

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:19 NKJ)


Therefore we must interpret the phrase "written in the book" as it is meant elsewhere in scripture, for example ""Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal 3:10 NKJ).

The dead are judged 'on the basis of these books" according to their works: "were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev 20:12 KJV)

In Jewish eschatology names were written into the book of life or book of death, according to their works and that is what is being referred to in Verse 15 anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire:

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”
- Neusner, Jacob: The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, MA : Hendrickson Publishers, 2011, S. 6-

It is the consistent teaching of scripture the righteous and unrighteous dead are judged at the same time:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12:2 NKJ)
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18 NKJ)0

Rev 20:15 is parenthetical, explaining all not found written in the book of life, were cast into the lake of fire. As both "conditions" exist, one is either in the book or not, this isn't hypothetical argument. It follows Death and Hades being cast into the lake of fire to symbolize these will never return, therefore it refers to the entire judgment event including those judged worthy of being written into the book of life:

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27-1 NKJ)


The NET Bible translates:


If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NET)


Not all were cast into the fire, only whose not found written in the book.

 

I will be treating your entire response, my post above addresses only who "the dead" are, nothing more. Patience, I'll get it done when I can.

 

Scripture interprets scripture, The Day of Judgement in Rev 20:11-15 also known as the "Day of Christ" or "last day", cannot be a judgment of the condemned only:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Joh 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


41 "The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
42 "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
(Mat 12:41-42 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)


Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


Act 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Mat 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luk 14:14 "And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:2-16 NKJ)

Joh 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Gal 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

 

Claiming they are different books, is not proving these are different books.

The slight difference in name doesn't accomplish that, nor would emphasizing one aspect over another in different verses; otherwise the slightly different names, titles and activity of Jesus would prove there are many of Him.

 

Its not lazy I ask you prove your claims...slight changes in the name don't do it as we learn from Jesus and His apostles different names.

NKJ Mark 3:16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter;
(Mar 3:16 NKJ)

NKJ Mark 3:17 James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, "Sons of Thunder";
(Mar 3:17 NKJ)

 

No, you strung together proof texts which don't seem to support your thesis... try citing them, explain the precise way they support your claims.

When I read them, they don't say to me what they say to you.

My answer above to DHK illustrates (imperfectly) what you should do...bold the wording proving your point.

 

I want you prove your exegesis citing the words and their meaning in context and how they are relevant to your point....like a critical commentary would do.

 

The wording of the Bible cannot be changed. It says what it says. If you have a problem with belief then that is your problem.

I agree you have a problem, the wording contradicts your theory Rev 20:11-15 is about the eternally condemned only, not only does the open book of life (20:12) contradict that, also the wording of verse 15 implies many were found written in the book of life, ONLY those not in it were cast into the lake of fire:

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NET)

NEITHER can the wording of other Bible texts be changed to fit the notion Rev 20:11-15 is about the eternally condemned only. These texts say some have done good, and rise to the resurrection of life:
"that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1Co 5:5 NKJ); all who are in the graves will hear His voice "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life (John 5:28f); And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life (Dan 12:2); there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

1 Cor 5:5 directly contradicts any claim no one is saved in Rev 20:11-15:
"that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Whether he was excommunicated or not doesn't change Paul's express teaching his spirit may be saved on Judgment day.

As for 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

"We must all" contradicts this is about believers only, and some receiving "bad" can be read confirming this. Believers don't receive "evil; bad" from God.


I can concede the next few verses, BUT not Dan 12:2 which directly contradict your exegesis this is about two resurrections, these sleeping in the same dust awake at the same time, the righteous and the unrighteous :

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The same point applies in the John 5:28f paralle, these come out in the same hour, from graves at the same time, but those who have done good rise to life, those who done evil rise to condemnation…proving beyond doubt your theory about Judgment day concerning only the eternally condemned, must be wrong.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (Joh 5:28-30 NKJ)

So none of these texts support your theory Judgment Day concerns only the wicked.

 

First lets review the facts about the book of life:

The book of life is first used in Revelation in a letter to Sardis about those who remain faithful in spite of persecution. These are not martyrs, yet their names are in the book of life:

5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev 3:5 NKJ)

Therefore we must conclude some of these "who are not martyrs yet have their names in the book of life" are among "the rest of the dead" who rise up a 1,000 years later, because the first resurrection is restricted to martyrs only:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev 20:12 NKJ)

From this it becomes clear why the book of life is opened, so the names of those written therein could be exempted from the "judgment according to works."

Their salvation is not in question. Just as Jesus said.


They rise to a resurrection of life, not a resurrection of KRISIS judgment:


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh 5:24 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)


So your exegesis this is about the eternally condemned only is contradicted by Christ twice, in Revelation and in the Gospel of John.

Rather than calling me names, deal with that fact. Why should we believe you and not Christ?


Especially when the imagery of this is about a court, where a judge sits on the throne, and judges according to their works.

Why is it wrong to believe God might write some of these into the book of life, if He found their works merited it?

Isn't that merciful? Isn't God merciful?

Why must we believe God will save only a tiny remnant and everyone else He reprobated to be cast into the lake of fire, not because they did anything good or bad, but because before the foundation of the world, it was His good pleasure and will.


Why is that idea not blasphemous antichristian nonsense, and what I say heresy, especially when I am repeating precisely what Christ said in His Word?

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 KJV)

 

After claiming I'm confused, you agree with my main points that Rev 3:5 shows more than martyrs names are in the book of life, and Rev 20:4 shows ONLY those martyred during the reign of the Antichrist are raised up in the first resurrection.

BUT you ignored the next leg of my argument, the most important part…as the martyrs only are raised up in the first resurrection, "the rest of the dead" in 20:5 refers to the rest of the righteous dead whose names are in the book of life, but weren't martyrs.

Therefore your claim Rev 20:11ff is about the eternally condemned only, is proven wrong by the scriptures.

It is evident the book of life is opened in 20:12 to prevent those who weren't martyrs be judged by what is written in the other books, according to their works…

THAT is precisely what Christ said in John 5:24-29, believers do not come under any KRISIS condemnation on Judgment Day, they rise from Hades with those who have "who have done good, to the resurrection of life" (John 5:29 NKJ).


AND I also argue Jesus revealed those who died without Christ can be saved, if their works are the equivalent to "receiving Him", if "they have done good":

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

These didn't know Christ was benefited by their charity, which was equivalent to loving light, receiving Christ into their lives…they didn't even recognize they were helping Jesus at all, yet God saves them because of their love of light:

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)


As both the righteous and unrighteous are again being judged according to their works, its evident this is about the end time Judgment event reported in Rev 20:11-15. Other wording in the context confirms this is not about "Christ's brethren = the church Rom 8:29) who have passed from death into life and so won't be judged, its about those who are judged according to their works and some of them are sheep, the rest goats:

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(Mat 25:41-1 NKJ)

So rather than follow a French cleric fresh out of Catholicism during the 16th century, whose idea God eternally reprobated the vast majority of mankind to eternal punishment, not because they did anything good or bad, but because it was God's good pleasure (!) and will to do so, its seems much better we follow Christ and believe what He says:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

This is consistent with Christ's teaching every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, even the sin of dying without Christ:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

The premise dying without Christ damns one eternally, is a sweeping generalization error that overlooks Hades is an intermediate state (Rev 20:14) which is emptied of its inhabitants and then everyone therein is judged. Therefore repentance in Hades(1 Pet 4:4-6) can save one on Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 5:5).

So rather than a tiny remnant being saved, I believe God's promise to Abraham:

5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Gen 15:5-6 NKJ)