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Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson., Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    No, you didn't treat my point at all as your examples prove:

    There is only one kind of faith. It is trust, belief, confidence.
    Everyone has faith. What changes is the object of one's faith.
    Jesus said: Unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter the kingdom of God.


    A little child cannot reason to probability, they just trust their parents without reasoning whether its probable they will treat them well.

    That "faith" is different than "believing" a lock will lock, or a car will drive, or a burger will taste good. That isn't faith, that is reasoning to probable outcomes.

    This is illustrated by what saves, it saved no one to believe Jesus is a man, because everyone could see that He is.

    But when watching Him eat, drink, sleep...it required faith to believe He is the Christ, the Eternal Son of God, because that cannot be seen, that was not expected by looking at Him eat drink and sleep.

    Believing Jesus is the Christ saves, believing He is a mere man does not.

    Therefore two different types of belief exist, one saves, the other does not.

    You cannot believe in Jesus as we do now, once He arrives in glory with His holy angels...then the fact He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, is merely acknowledging reality.

    THAT is why its a new dispensation, then everyone will be judged by their works, precisely as Jesus taught in Matthew 25:31-46.
     
    #121 Alfred Persson., Feb 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2012
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Look at your statement above! What is the only thing different? It is not in the word "belief" but the only difference in the two phrases are "unseen...seen".

    It is not a different "beleif" but the difference is the object (seen versus unseen).

    You are wrong about anyone being justified by works at any time within the sphere of time. There is no other gospel, no other way, no other Savior, or no other salvation from Genesis 3:15 to Revelation 22. Note the words of Acts 4:12 carefully:

    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    There is no salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST for any man at any time. All those chosen in Christ unto salvation were chosen before the world began (Eph. 1:4) and regardless if you believe in conditional or unconditional election there will be none saved at anytime outside the elect in Christ and they were chosen before the foundation of the world and their names written in the book of life before the world began.

    Take note of Romans 3:19-20 and the words "NO FLESH" that includes millennial flesh as well.

    There is no salvation for anyone at any time outside of faith IN the gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Acts 4:12; Rev. 14:6).
     
  3. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson. New Member

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    I repeatedly stated there is no salvation apart from Jesus, no other name whereby men may be saved.

    Your reply proves you misunderstood most of what I said, if not all.

    The dispensation of salvation through faith cannot exist when it does not require faith to believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God; therefore Christ's teaching the sheep were saved by works in Matthew 25:31-46 is not to be overruled-overturned-broken-nullified-rendered of no effect; by those who lack divine authority to do so:

    33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
    36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
    37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
    38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
    39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
    40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:33-40 NKJ)

    "YOU DID IT" = WORKS.

    These can be saved by works BECAUSE Christ's propitiation covers their sin:

    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)


    Otherwise their paltry works would save none of them.


    Reducing the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice is not the apostolic position. Only God can delineate what evil won't be covered, as He did in Mat 12:31ff for example which specifically includes the "age to come," a Jewish phrase that covers everything after physical death:

    31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
    32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
    (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)
     
    #123 Alfred Persson., Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 29, 2012
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is saying no other thing than what James says in James 2:14-26. Works are the manifest evidence of justifying faith.

    Furthermore, the righteous asked "WHEN DID WE SEE YOU" thus proving they did not see Christ but acted by faith in Christ.

    Secondly, the fallen nature of man cannot be redeemed through works of any kind. No flesh can at any time!
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There are not two different types of faith. There is only one kind of faith. Faith means trust, confidence. It is not reasoning. It is trust, just like a child has faith in his parents.

    What is important is the object of one's faith. The child has faith in his parents. The parents may be able to "save" the child from physical harm, but they cannot "save" the child spiritually, only Christ can do that.

    The object of my faith, spiritually, is Christ. He is the only one that can give me eternal life. Salvation is only through him. However when it comes to calculus, engineering, and endocrinology, it is better to put your faith in your teacher and the text that he is teaching out of.
     
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