Joel 2:28 relative to dispensationalism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by percho, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28 KJV

    Is God at this present moment in time pouring out his Spirit upon all flesh or did God on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus, begin to take out of the Jews and then a little later, begin to take out of the Gentiles a people for his name, giving them, or pouring out on them, the Holy Spirit? Are they, those taken out of the Jews and those taken out of the Gentiles called in Romans 8:23 as we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit?

    Is the Holy Spirit in them, the earnest of their inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, that being, the redemption of the body? Eph 1:14, Rom 8:23

    Are these being taken out of the Jews and Gentiles during this time of the firstfruits of the Spirit the only of mankind that will be gathered into God through Christ or these taken as a people for his name to rule with Christ unto the gathering of man into God, beginning at the coming of Christ to rule in the kingdom of his glory?

    References:

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    Acts 15:16 After this (taking out of the Jews and the Gentiles) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. <

    Monergism or Synergism applies.

    All of God. Jesus saves.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    "percho,


    Peter said it was fulfilled at Pentecost;
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    This is fulfilled in the day of the Apostles...

    :Thumbsup
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Lev. 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16,17,18,19,
    20,21 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

    Numbers 28:26 Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:

    Was the day above prophetic of the day of the firstfruits of the Spirit? If God called one tomorrow September 22,2016 and gave him the Holy Spirit, would that one be inclusive of the we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit of Romans 8:23 and would that one then be groaning within himself waiting for the adoption, the redemption of the body. Would tomorrow be his day of the firstfruits of the Spirit?

    Had the Spirit of God been poured out upon his flesh on September 1, 2016?

    Had the Spirit been poured out on Saul on the morning he left for Damascus?

    Did all of what Peter spoke in Acts 2:16-21 from Joel take place on that 24 hour day, that we know of?
     
  4. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Did the tabernacle of David rule over, all Israel, over both houses.

    Ezek 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

    Doesn't that need to be fulfilled before one could say the tabernacle of David has been re built?

    Ezek 37: 24,25 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    I don't think so Iconoclast
    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    These things are yet to happen unless the metaphorical preterist system is true..

    HankD
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Yes Hank....that is correct....compare the language of isa 13.
    Isa 34....
    Same metaphorical language
     
  7. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    OK.

    So here is a question which comes to mind (no need to answer here - really - just saying)

    What then do the metaphors represent and have these metaphorical events happened yet?

    HankD
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    Well it's true and it's happened:

    29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

    Realized on earth as:

    12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6

    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
    8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. Rev 12

    17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
    18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven. Lu 10

    8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour, 1 Pet 5

    ...unless of course some convoluted spin given by a hardheaded dispie from a preconceived notion that denies all the time factors given to us is true.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    I would change one word in this sentence to be in agreement.

    :)

    HankD
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,178
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    I disagree that the language is metaphorical. I believe it is allegorical. :)
     
  11. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    Interesting.

    Google definitions:

    Metaphor:
    1) a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
    2) a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

    Allegory:
    1) a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
    e.g.Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of a spiritual journey.
    2) a symbol.

    HankD
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,178
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    Yes. The story may or may not be factual, but there is a deeper meaning than the mere surface meaning of the words used to recount the story.

    The narrative in chapter 13 is clearly regarding the overthrow of the Chaldean Empire. But underneath the surface is a prophecy of events yet to come, the overthrow of the nations hostile to Yahwah.

    Chapter 34 is an invitation to view the terrible destruction that falls on the nations hostile to Yahwah, but beneath the obvious surface meaning is the deeper prophecy of the yet future judgment that will fall on all nations.

    This is similar to the allegory of the fall of the King of Babylon found in Isaiah 14 when, examined more closely, we see, beneath the obvious meaning, is the deeper narrative of the fall of Satan and the results.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Hank....the metaphors seem to be a change of government, or a change of administration.....There were many "Day of the Lord's"....that is a time of God's judgment falling upon a nation....
    The imagery of The sun ,moon, and stars spoke of rulers....even back with Joseph gen37;
    6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

    7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

    8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

    9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

    in Isa13;
    6 Howl ye; for
    the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

    7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
    Heb12
    8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
    mt24
    9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
    Joel2, acts2
    11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

    13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
    Heb12

    Babylon had to be destroyed....notice all the language that is bolded....I will put similar language from the NT under each phrase-There are several more and it all is from scripture itself.....

    Here is the judgment of edom;
    isa34;
    4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

    5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

    now see rev6;
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    If these things literally took place, life on this planet would have ceased before the cross....
    how would the heavens literally role up like a scroll???? how would literal stars fall to the earth without burning us to a crisp????
    There are more figures like these that God has repeated in the OT already.....
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Did Peter quote what he did from Joel 2:28 - 32 which he cut off mid verse because that was the beginning of the process of fulfillment of the last part of that verse?

    V32 last Part- for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    Is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit the calling of the remnant to rule with Christ, when he returns to sit on the throne of the kingdom of his glory?

    Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:27,28

    And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. Luke 11:11-19

    Has God completed calling the remnant to rule with him and giving them the first fruit of the Spirit. I say No.............

    Or is there a dispensation of, the first fruit of the Spirit, (the feast of firstfruits, if you will) to rule with Christ and after this calling of, the fullness of the nations to rule with him, he will return to rule with them?

    Why did Peter stop mid verse in Joel 2:32?

    Is the feast of trumpets, next? What does each of you believe the feast of trumpets, a Sabbath, a holy convocation, is prophetic or type of?

    Was the Passover a prophesy and or type? The feast of unleavened bread, two holy convocations? The day of firstfruits?

    Not good is your glorying; have ye not known that a little leaven the whole lump doth leaven? cleanse out, therefore, the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened, for also our passover for us was sacrificed -- Christ, 1 Cor 5:6.7

    On the 14th the Passover, Christ, died for us, on 15th -21st unleavened: Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, 1 Cor 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
     
  15. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    My opinion, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled then we will probably see things becoming literal - Sun, moon, stars, etc.

    Gotta run - Dr. appointment.

    HankD
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    My question to you is would those first century Jews share your view? Their Hebrew Scriptures were full of this type on language, why all of the sudden in their day would they assume it literal?

    Hank, do you really think the moon will turn to blood? Do you really think the sun will turn to darkness?

    Hope the doctor's visit went well.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    When they (or anyone sees) see it coming to pass as literal.

    The wonders shown to Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea were literal.

    Yes. As I have said so often in the past - EVERYTHING depends upon how and what portions of scripture one interprets as literal, metaphor, mixed metaphor, hyperbole, simile, allegory, symbolic, etc...) and the bible is filled with both literalness and symbolism) So yes, IMO the sun will diminish in its brightness and the light of the moon will be appear to be a blood red color just before that great and notable day of the Lord comes.

    So, we can both read this passage and say the scripture is true! and that's GREAT.

    At my age it never does (well usually never).

    HankD
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Not sure how the parting of the Red Sea figures into this. In the other cases we have numerous examples of metaphorical language describing literal historical events.

    Now the verse under consideration doesn't say "the sun will diminish in its brightness" it says it will be turned to darkness. Neither does it say, "the light of the moon will be appear to be a blood red color" it say the moon into blood. at least that would be the literal interpretation.

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    Stay healthy my friend.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    You just proved my point of differing interpretations grasshopper. Yours and mine.

    The light of the moon a blood red color vs. the moon turning to blood - perfectly allowable within the scope of biblical Hebrew and Greaco/Hebrew expressions for them to be equivalent.

    e.g. Song of Solomon 6:6 Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing...
    You have beautiful white teeth.

    I want to stay well, a prayer to that end would be appreciated.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
    #19 HankD, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016

Share This Page

Loading...