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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ben W, Jun 24, 2005.
I have to agree - he is just saying what "he feels the audience wants to hear".
He feels Larry King's need not to be judgmental or insist that Christ is the only way to heaven - so he goes there!
He feels the caller's need to say that Jesus is the only way truth and light -- so he goes there.
He is not comfortable saying "you are wrong" in a context where it means that the person he is saying it to - will not pay any money if they hear him say that.
I am one who believes that the Holy Spirit works as described in John 16 and John 12:32 and Romans 2:13-16 on all people -- even non-Christians. But there is a big difference between that and hedging like Joel was doing.
I new there was something not quite right with him the first time I heard him preach. It didn't sit well within my spirit. Joel is not the first preacher to dodge Larry Kings blunt questions. He had some catholic priest on as well a few years back who pretty much said what Joel says. Satan wants to unite the world and the Word of Christ divides it. We can see who's side Joel is on no matter if he feels in his heart he is being kind. He is actually being cruel by withholding the pure word of the Lord. I wonder how all of those who end up in hell will praise his kind words then.
This was an interesting exchange.
KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?
OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that. I would present my way, but I'm just going to let god be the judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.
I didn't see the interview, but Joel initially answers the way he probably really feels, which happens to be the truth as well. It seems that he then catches himself and realizes that he just alienated more than half of the listeners and tries to backtrack. Of course, that wishy-washy style wasn't much of a match for Larry King. Larry smelled blood in the water, so to speak, and went after it, making Joel look silly because he wouldn't take a solid stand for anything.
First time I have agreed with Osteen. God can "save" anyone "in" Christ Jesus.
Indeed Joel's overriding "core value" was coming out at the expense of looking foolish. His prime directive is "please all".
The crowd he speaks to on Sunday has s certain list of "Things" that he can "preach against" and also "preach in favor of" and still get moneyu from them. He knows exactly what that list is.
But the list for Larry King's audience is "very different" and Larry was trying to push Joel to a sticky point where Joel would have to choose between the prime directive of "lose no money opportunity in what you say" vs ???.
The problem is that if Joel opts to "only please Larry's audience dollars" then his own followers might withhold cash. If he opts to only please his core base - then he misses out on raking in a share of Larry's vast market.
He was truly in a tight spot. No wonder he was conflicted about what POV to actually stick with!!
Very disappointing indeed.
And equally sad is that Billy Graham was on Larry Kings program 3-4 years ago and did the very same thing. When asked about those...hindus, buddhists, etc...who reject Christ brother Graham said something to the effect that "I cant judge their hearts or declare them lost. I'll let God do that."
I remember it specifically because of how shocked I was.
I'd like to give both of these brothers the benefit of the doubt and say that I hope what they mean is that we cant see whether any of these people who haved rejected Christ might...in their heart...surrender to Christ on their deathbeds in the moments just prior to dying.
I hope that is what they mean...but I agree completly that the proper thing to say on national TV is that Christ is the only hope, and if you reject him you have rejected the possibility for salvation.
In a similar vein, Graham...who was very strong against Catholicism in his early years...has done a flip flop in his late years and declared Pope John Paul II a great spiritual leader and said very positive things about Catholicism.
However, having said that it was still a great thrill to attend a Crusade of Grahams 4-5 years ago. The annointing on Graham and in that stadium as he proclaimed the gospel that night was very discernable and very strong.
So, who is Joel Osteen? Never heard of him. Is he a new "saviour of Christianity?" Is he another preacher we have put on a pedestal only to be disappointed?
When will we stop worrying about these little gods and just get about the work God has given us to do in our own little circle?
Osteen is the pastor of the largest church in the U.S., Lakewood Church in TX. He is becoming very popular, especially since his book, Your Best Life Now just came out and is doing good.
Osteen is Word Faith and also teaches New Thought principles -- you must think positive and say things positive or bad things will happen to you. He says in his book that you must declare blessings out loud in order to get them. This is all Word Faith (which has a lot in common with New Thought. New Thought gave rise to Christian Science, Unity, and Church of Religions Science as well as various mind science groups).
Osteen also has taught that Jesus had to go to hell and fight Satan in order to "win" over Satan. This is also taught by Copeland and other WF teachers.
The problems is that Osteen is a smooth talker and makes people feel good. Christians left and right are falling for him.
Do you have any "win over satan" quotes from him?
Just as I thought. Another bloke not worth the time of day let alone a discussion in here. I have more important things to do, such as weed my garden.
The problem is Jim, this guy has masses of amounts of money to buy airtime on TV, no doubt he does Evangalise, yet a number of his people that he targets to give him more money and become his supporters are Baptist or other evangelical Christians.
Like a Cancer the Word of Faith teachings spread!!!
As Baptists, we are the last group that really have the ability to be able to do something about the Word of Faith movment, it has overtaken a number of Pentecostal Fellowships, and a number of the once vibrant Chiristian churches have fallen asleep.
John Ankerberg has a standing invitation for any one involved in the Word of Faith movement to come onto his discernment show and answer questions from Scripture on its teachings. Hinn, Copeland, Hagin, all have refused for good reason. That they would be exposed by someone who they would struggle to discredit.
Joel Osteen has a problem now though, because even the blind that follow after the WOF garbage are aware that there are not multiple ways to God. I hope that the Lord will open many peoples eyes through this current situation.
Just to add, that I think that Joel Osteen should go on the Ankerberg Show, I went to his website with the intention of emailing him exactly what I thought about the interview on Larry King to discover that a number of people have been their first and done so. He has printed a full retraction, which suggests to me that we should be praying for Joel Osteen to recant also the Word of Faith teachings, if he is man enough to admit that he is wrong here, I think there is a chance he could turn away from WOF also.
Anyway here is his letter from his website,
- Dear Friend,
Many of you have called, written or e-mailed regarding my recent appearance on Larry King Live. I appreciate your comments and value your words of correction and encouragement.
It was never my desire or intention to leave any doubt as to what I believe and Whom I serve. I believe with all my heart that it is only through Christ that we have hope in eternal life. I regret that I was unclear on the very thing in which I have dedicated my life.
Jesus declared in John 14; I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me. I believe that Jesus Christ alone is the way to salvation. However, it wasn’t until I had the opportunity to review the transcript of the interview that I realize I had not clearly stated that having a personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to heaven. It’s about the individual’s choice to follow Him.
God has given me a platform to present the Gospel to a very diverse audience. In my desire not to alienate the people that Jesus came to save, I did not clearly communicate the convictions that I hold so precious.
I will use this as a learning experience and believe that God will ultimately use it for my good and His glory. I am comforted by the fact that He sees my heart and knows my intentions. I am so thankful that I have friends, like you, who are willing to share their concerns with me.
Thank you again to those who have written. I hope that you will see it in your heart to extend to me His grace and your forgiveness.
As always, I covet your prayers and I am believing for God’s best in your life,
Pastor - Lakewood Church
I have been away on a mission's trip to MT and WA for a few weeks.
Concerning Joel Osteen:
I heard him on Larry King while I was out of town. (We don't have cable TV and I always serf the channels when out-of-town).
Firstt, he does not say anything that is "offenseive." He does not talk about "sin" or "judgment" or such. Jesus and Paul both talked about "the Cross of Christ" being an offense or a "stone of stumbling" to them which are in (or of) this world.
Second, Paul the Apostle said he preached "the whole council of God." Joel seems to be holding back somewhat.
Third, he seems to portray that there is some good in each of his hearers. Does the Scripture not say that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked--who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Talk about leaving the Biblical Doctrine of Depravity behind?
Fourth, although he does use Scripture; it is for his own purposes. His prime purpose being a "psychological 'Gospel'" rather than a full-blown Gospel
Fifth, it seems to me that the preaching of "The Law" is what is required to get men "lost" before you preach "The Good News" in order for them to be "saved." What is gotten from Osteen could just as easily be found on the psychiatrist's or psychologist's couch or so it appears to me.
My two cents worth!
I wondered if he ever preached about sin or how we are all sinners that need Jesus and all.
I don't know much about him really. Surfing the tv myself I saw him for a few minutes and didn't care for it so I kept going.
He is getting more and more popular with everyone so I thought about checking him out. I hear all the time how great he is and that right there concerns me.
Just last week a Christian woman asked on another board if we have heard about him because her husband (an unbeliever) really enjoys his sermons. That's the only preacher he will listen to. So I told her you might want to be cautious there if an unbeliever likes the sermons. And check him out and see what he believes and teaches. I don't think she liked hearing that because she was happy that her husband would watch anything at all.
This is a point I would like to expand on. Many times that which a person or a church "officially" states in writing as positional doctrine does not coinside with what they actually promote and teach. And many times there doctrinal statements are sound, but once they have you in, they begin to push false prophets or erronious traditions which destroy the seekers quest for truth. Maybe even destroying any chance for salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
The Mormons have Joseph Smith, the SDA"s have Ellen White, the JW's have the Watch Tower, the Catholics have a Pope.
In the case of the Catholics you have them declaring that anyone who believes that faith alone in Jesus Christ is enough to grant salvation is acursed. Yet when pressed on the issue they hedge and try to embrace all as having salvation through Jesus Christ regardless of this belief in faith alone. What has been declared by them concerning "Faith Alone" has never been retracted. It can never be retracted. For to retract any declaration handed down by the "official church" would mean that they were wrong, and since they are God's chosen authority on interpretational matters, this cannot be, to retract would be the beginning of the end for the catholic church, so they must wiggle around the declaration rather than promote it to it's fullest intent.
We will learn in the future whether or not Joel's "retraction" is genuine. I am sure he will have many more secular opportunities to declare that Jesus Christ is the only God and Savior for the entire world. That without faith in Him alone there is no salvation or heaven awaiting the unbeliever.
I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Let's see what his future holds.
I've never heard of him. Isn't it grand that we have the Holy Spirit as a check? And we have the Word readily available to check these things?
Peter denied Christ thrice. Christ not only forgave him but called him a rock and promised to build a church through him.
I heard Osteen with my own ears give a sermon in which the message was that you can kill someone with your thoughts. He talked first about a woman whose plants died because although she took care of them, they died because she worried about them.
Then he talked about a man who had a lovely wife and young children but he always worried about losing his wife. After a few years, she died (she was still pretty young). Osteen then said something about the power of our thoughts and how we have to be careful.
I recently ran into a friend who had heard this same sermon and was astonished at what Osteen said. He remembered the same things I had remembered about it.
Osteen is New Thought and Word Faith; he believes that you materially create your reality with your thoughts and words (this is similar to the kind of thinking in the New Age, which has also been influenced by New Thought). God is not in charge; you are.
It is sad that so many flock to an obvious false teacher...which is yet more evidence that a large Church is not always a sign that God is blessing it. Enter the narrow gate and leave the wide road that leads to destruction to folks like Osteen.