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John 1:1

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jesus is Lord, May 20, 2004.

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  1. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord New Member

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    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. -John 1:1 KJV

    This is the verse the way we all know it. The Jehova´s Witnesses change the last words to "the word was a God." We all know that this is not a correct translation. Now I heard that "in the Greek" this verse is even more clear because it says:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was the God.

    Is that true?
     
    #1 Jesus is Lord, May 20, 2004
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No. the last phrase in the Greek is worded and God was the Word

    HankD
     
    #2 HankD, May 20, 2004
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    [
    As well as the:

    NKJV
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    NASB
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    RSV
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    And many others.

    HankD
     
    #3 HankD, May 20, 2004
  4. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord New Member

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    Alright. But that was not the point. Is it possible to get the translation:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was the God."

    from the Greek?
     
    #4 Jesus is Lord, May 20, 2004
  5. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    The second instance of theos is anarthrous; that is, it does not have a definite article. It is implied by the grammar. Not being too well versed in Greek, that's about all I can say about it.

    James White has a lengthy exegetical article about this verse on his site. There's also another related article about the JWs' fallacious appeal to certain German theologians to support their "translation."
     
    #5 Ransom, May 20, 2004
  6. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos New Member

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    No. There is no definite article before "God." The Greek reads, "en arch hn o logov kai o logov hn prov ton yeon kai yeov hn o logov." The articles are before logov (word) and the first usage of "yeon" (God). The second usage of "yeov" has no article but is in the emphatic position in the clause. (The different spelling of the last letter is due to one being objective and the other subject [when put in English grammatical terms].) It could be translated "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." But the emphatic position of "yeov" would also make this translation acceptable "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with (the) [the article is superfluous in English grammar] God and the word was emphatically God."
     
    #6 skanwmatos, May 20, 2004
  7. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    The definite article in Greek can be a little tricky. Thw Jehovah's witness' translation is WRONG - "a god" doesn't make sense.

    In this sentence the word "God" is in the predicate nominative position, following the verb. Most of the time this is translated as an "arthous" noun - that is one which has the definite article. God is referred to as "the God" in the Greek NT - that's typical. Assuming we know to whom it refers (namely God!) it is not necessary to translate in "the God" in English.

    What this boils down to is this:

    The KJB translation is correct. "A god" is wrong and "the God" is clumsy and is a poor English rendering. Remember that 2 different languages DO NOT line up identically!!!
     
    #7 Charles Meadows, May 20, 2004
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Thanks to those pointing out the FACT in this issue. Many of us deal with JW's and to see the correct basis in Greek grammar to refute this error rather than turning this into another KJV v MV debate is laudable. Thank you Ransom, Skan, Charles, et al.

    [ May 20, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, May 20, 2004
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    How did the JW's handle this back when the KJV was their only acceptable translation?

    The last time I researched it they only accepted two versions, the NWT and the KJV.

    Anybody know if that is still the case?
     
    #9 NaasPreacher (C4K), May 20, 2004
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Temporary lock down while all posts NOT relating to Jn 1:1 are purged.

    NOW back open for discussion on the issue of translating John 1:1. KJVO (pro/con) will not be allowed to hijack this thread.

    (Wow! Back down from nearly 4 pages to less than 1)

    [ May 20, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, May 20, 2004
  11. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    There's a very nice and extensive discussion of this topic and the "Granville Sharp rule" in Daniel Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics".
     
    #11 Charles Meadows, May 20, 2004
  12. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Any JW, when asked, will tell you, "The King James is a great translation. I have one in my library." But he will then continue using 38 different translations to prove his 'religion'.

    In Christ,
    Trotter

    [Oh, and as to the number of translations, get a copy of their handbook, Reasoning From the Scriptures, and count them. I found out about it in my course on JW's from the 'diploma mill' that I attend.]
     
    #12 Trotter, May 20, 2004
  13. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Are there any ex-JWs that are with us that would like to comment on this verse?

    I would be interested in how this verse, which is the most popular derivation of the NWT, effected there personal beliefs about who Jesus is.
     
    #13 tinytim, May 21, 2004
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