1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John 10:15 and the Atonement

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Nov 4, 2004.

Top Posters
Page 4 of 18
  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Southern adds to his problems in his attempts to avoid the subset and superset statements in the NT - by pretending that we can ignore the fact that John is writing after the cross to the entire NT church of the saints in places like 1John 1.

    However - as we can see below - that simply will not work.

    .
    ==========================================================================
    Let us look at 1John 2 with the redefinition that Calvinism "needs" for the person of the 2nd part (We/Us/Our) and redefine that to mean "elect Jews only" and "World" can be redefined at will to mean "The arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7" or in this case "The few Elect Jews and Elect Gentiles"

    Already the text is so compromised by using the redefinition for the person of the 2nd part to mean - elect JEWS ONLY -- as Calvinism "needs it". IT makes general salvation principles (those that apply to both Gentile and Jewish Christians) needlessly restricted to "elect Jews only" - simply because "Calvinism needs it" - such that only "Elect Jews" have an ADVOCATE when ANYONE sins.
    The universal salvation principle that applies to both Gentile and Jewish Christians alike - is restricted to "elect Jews Only" when the redefintion for "We/Us/Our" is allowed to be "redefined" in the way that Calvinism "needs" it.
    The redefinition required by the model of Calvinsm in 1John is unworkable since it takes unniversal concepts of salvation and deliberately restricts it "to elect Jews only". As if John had started his book with -- "Now to the elect Jews scattered throughout the world -- I write.."
    The attempt to redefine "WE/US/OUR" such that it refers to "elect Jews only" and "WORLD" refers to "ELECT JEWS and GENTILES ONLY" in 1John 2 - is problematic, and is not demanded by the wording in the text but is simply "needed" in Calvinism to support its model.

    Of course in the 5 point Calvinist model - it is not I that have chosen to highlight these points - but God has sovereignly caused me to do it - in any case, redefining the person of the 2nd part to mean "elect Jews only" in the book of 1 John causes more problems than it solved.

    </font>[/QUOTE]As already noted - Southern needs to edit the text of 1John 1:9 so that it says ...

    Such a limitation was never the teaching of any Apostle or saint in all of scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #61 BobRyan, Nov 12, 2004
  2. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Bob,

    That's because Jesus tells us who He lays His life down for (The Sheep) and then tells some of his hearers that they are not of this group. This is devastating to your Arminian view. If this is not under debate, then how do you uphold your view of universal atonement, when there are some that Jesus did not lay His life down for. Universal means everyone, Jesus said some were not included. This is in direct opposition to what this scripture says.

    What? The reason people do not believe is because they are "not" of Christ's sheep (vs. 26). The only ones who believe are the "sheep" (vs. 27;John 6:37;Acts 13:48). These are the ones that "will be" saints as Jesus said they "will" hear His voice (vs. 16,27).

    I will leave it up to the reader to see your faulty reasoning. You are assuming that John is speaking about Christians in general when He says "our" sins rather than the overwhelming evidence that shows that John was speaking as a Jew when He said and not for our sins "only" (John 11:50ff.). I encourage the reader to see a refutation of this in the I John 2:2 fourm.


    We have before us a text that tells us "who" Jesus laid His life down for (the sheep) and then there were some who were told that they were not of His sheep. John 10 explains that perfectly and I think anyone looking at this text can see that this is true. Your attempt to evade this is obvious in your failure to offer an interpretation that explains how Jesus could exclude some of His hearers from the group He just said He laid His life down for.

    I have invited you to go to the I John 2:2 section and provide evidence for your interpretation. Please read my first post there and see how this verse is directly in line with what John 10 is saying.

    In fact here in John 10 we have a reference kinda like I John 2:2, notice:
    In I John 2:2, John is speaking as a Jew (please go to the I John 2:2 forum and see my explanation). He says that Christ is the propitiation for "our" sins (the Jews), but not for "our" sins only (Jews), but for the sins of the "whole world" (Gentiles also). This not "us only" (Jews) is a recurring theme throughout the scriptures (John 11:50ff). It addressed the prevailing Jewish mindset of the day.
    In John 10 Jesus lays down His life for the Sheep, but not just the Jewish sheep but...

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


    Notice, Jesus has sheep that are not just of the Jews, but out of the "World=Gentiles". There is no inconsistency in these two passages. You cannot adequately explain John 10 and you have a faulty understanding of I John 2:2.

    You have shown that you have no adequate answer to get around the clear teaching of this text. Jesus layed down His life for the "sheep". This involves the Jewish "sheep" and other "sheep" that He must bring in (Gentiles). In the Jewish mindset "the world" (people outside of Israel). I John 2:2 and John 10 are complimentary. It should be evident now that in your interpreation of both these passages, you have Jesus and John contradicting each other.

    Thanks for your time and effort to discuss these important issues.
     
    #62 Southern, Nov 12, 2004
  3. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,
    Wow Bob, you'll try anything to get around John 10, but again your attempt it futile.

    Notice the following from A.W. Pink with special emphasis on the last sentence to answer your last "post":

    (1) In the opening verse he says of Christ, "Which we have seen with our eyes. . . and our hands have handled." How impossible it would have been for the apostle Paul to have commenced any of his epistles to Gentile saints with such language! (2) "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning" (I John 2:7). The "beginning" here referred to is the beginning of the public manifestation of Christ?in proof compare 1:1, 2:13, etc. Now these believers, the apostle tells us, had the "old commandment" from the beginning. This was true of Jewish believers, but it was not true of Gentile believers. (3) "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning" (2:13). Here, again, it is evident that it is Jewish believers that are in view. (4) "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us" (2:18,19). These brethren to whom John wrote had "heard" from Christ Himself that Antichrist should come (see Matt. 24). The "many antichrists" whom John declares "went out from us" were all Jews, for during the first century none but a Jew posed as the Messiah. Therefore, when John says "He is the propitiation for our sins," he can only mean for the sins of Jewish believers. (It is true that many things in John's Epistle apply equally to believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Christ is the Advocate of the one, as much as of the other.)
    ------------------------------------------

    In Conclusion, Pink points out that it is true that many things in this epistle "can" apply equally to all believers, but this proves nothing about this phrase as the above proof plainly shows. This was the premise that your entire post was based on and it proves absolutely nothing and certainly doesnt answer John 10.

    In Christ
     
    #63 Southern, Nov 12, 2004
  4. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    #64 Southern, Nov 12, 2004
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Southern,
    The OLD TESTAMENT teaches clearly that there was no other "elect" than the children of Israel. The Covenant was with Abraham! Not Abraham and all others. It certainly was not with the decendants of CAIN, whomever they may be.

    The New Testament makes it clear that God has opened the door to salvation to Whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus) shall have everlasting life...That is, not being cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

    If you believe otherwise, then you are limiting God!...but only to yourself!
     
    #65 Wes Outwest, Nov 13, 2004
  6. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes,
    No Calvinist denies that "Whosoever will" may come. This is totally irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding of what Calvinist's believe. Please start a forum on some verse that mentions whosoever will and I will be glad to discuss it with you. If you are up for a challenge to your "tradition", then go to the following link and search for the words "whosoever", and see how this proves absolutely nothing and is irrelevant to this discussion:
    http://aomin.org/DHOpenLetter.html

    Better yet, go to the John 3:16 forum and read the article and give your disagreements there.



    Also, I assume you have no answer for John 10, since you just started blaring off on some irrelevant subject. If you post again, please address John 10 and the fact that Jesus told some that they were not of the group that He laid His life down for.

    In Christ
     
    #66 Southern, Nov 13, 2004
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Southern,
    You insist on "redirecting" in order to make your point. I am not deviating from your first post which I comment on here.

    Do not count me among those who believe in a "limited atonement", I DO NOT! Conversely, I do believe in limited acceptance of the Atonement! Atonement was for all SIN, not for sinners! Please understand the distinction! Eternal life is for Believers in God, especially in God the Son!

    I adhere to no persuasion except that of Jesus the Christ, the Son of God! Your's persuasion should likewise reject Calvin and or Arminius, or any other that comes along.

    You lose! You cannot take John 10:15 and build a doctrine upon it! It is not a stand alone verse. You are compelled to take the 14 verses that precede it and 6 that follow it into consideration in order to receive the meaning of verse 15. I would also point out ACTS 10 and 11, where it was revealed to Peter that the Gospel message is indeed for All mankind. And that whosoever believeth includes ALL mankind. He came unto his own and His own received Him Not! Notice how Jesus describes HIS SHEEP! verses 27 and 28

    Pay particular attention to verse 27 and 28 in the following qouted scripture.

    Southern,
    Your conclusion is WRONG! The answer to you question is in this passage, and because the true meaning cannot be discerned in one verse, as your conclusion so clearly points out, I have included the whole passage for you edification.
    The scriptures are clear! Your theory has no foundation!
     
    #67 Wes Outwest, Nov 13, 2004
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Southern,
    Now lets see your understanding of atonement.

    Exactly what does scripture say that atonement is for?
     
    #68 Wes Outwest, Nov 13, 2004
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Obviously.

    The problem is that He never contradicts the rest of scripture by adding "And I ONLY give my life for my sheep" - as your view so desperately "needs" him to say.

    So lacking the text... you make it up?

    What are you going to do to provide its lack?

    The fact that it simply does not exist is devastating to your Calvinist POV.

    In the mean time I "actually HAVE" the text that mentions subset and superset regarding the atoning sacrifice - payment, of Christ "HE IS the atoning sacrifice FOR OUR SINS and NOT for OUR sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD".

    A more devastating case against Calvinism could not be imagined.

    Your view is in direct opposition to what this scripture says.

    The problem is - in the future "people get converted". Your wooden interpretation in John 10 does not allow for that since they already were not listening previously and your argument is that Christ could not die for those not listening.

    But in fact Christ died "For the Whole World" just as scripture says.

    So then - you are desperate to find a text that says "I only died for those people today who will in the future or have already today chosen to listen to me and be my sheep. The others I did not die for - so don't go around thinking I am the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the Whole World - because in fact I am only the atoning sacrifice for just my sheep".

    Good luck.


    Good idea. It won't take them long to see what 1John 2:2 says. The devastation it does to 4 and 5pt Calvinism can't be measured.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #69 BobRyan, Nov 13, 2004
  10. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    Once again...
    1.)Jesus said that He laid His life down for who?
    The "Sheep" (vs. 15)

    2.)Are all men Christs "sheep", the group that He laid His life down for?
    No, in verse 26 He tells some of His hearers that they are not included in the group He dies for (the sheep)!


    Yes and who are the ones that get converted?
    The "Sheep"! Jesus said that they (The Sheep) "Would" (future tense) hear his voice.

    Let me ask you, according to Verse 26, why did not those listening believe?

    Because they were not of Christ's Sheep. Only the sheep will "believe" (John 6:37;Acts 13:48)! Jesus lays His life down for the sheep, and eventually they "will" come. Not all the sheep have been brought into the fold as Jesus said (Vs. 16).

    You need to explain two things from this text:

    1.)Did Jesus, tell His listeners that they were not part of the "group" (Sheep) that He just said that He laid His life down for (Vs. 15)?

    2.)Why did His listeners not believe according to verse 26?

    Thank you for your time
     
    #70 Southern, Nov 13, 2004
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 10:1 `In all truth I tell you (Who?, the Jews he was speaking to in Chapter 9), anyone who does not enter the sheepfold through the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a bandit. 2 He who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the flock; 3 the gatekeeper lets him in, the sheep hear his voice, one by one he calls his own sheep and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all those that are his, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow because they know his voice. 5 They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognize the voice of strangers.'

    6 Jesus told them (who?, the Jews he was addressing in Chapter 9) this parable but they failed to understand what he was saying to them. 7 So Jesus spoke to them again: In all truth I tell you, I am the gate of the sheepfold. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and bandits, but the sheep took no notice of them. 9 I am the gate. Anyone who enters through me will be safe:(John 3:16) such a one will go in and out and will find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come so that they may have life and have it to the full. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.

    12 The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and the sheep do not belong to him, abandons the sheep as soon as he sees a wolf coming, and runs away, and then the wolf attacks and scatters the sheep; 13 he runs away because he is only a hired man and has no concern for the sheep.

    14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. 16 And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and I must lead these too. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, one shepherd. 17 The Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own free will, and as I have power to lay it down, so I have power to take it up again; and this is the command I have received from my Father. (To whom is Jesus speaking? To the same Jews as in Chapter 9)

    19 These words caused a fresh division among the Jews. 20 Many said, `He is possessed, he is raving; why do you listen to him?' 21 Others said, `these are not the words of a man possessed by a devil: could a devil open the eyes of the blind?'

    Jesus claims to be the Son of God
    22 It was the time of the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the Temple walking up and down in the Portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews gathered round him and said, `How much longer are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us openly.'

    25 Jesus replied: I have told you (Who? The Jews in the Portico of Solomon in the Temple), but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name are my witness; 26 but you (Who?, the Jews in the temple) do not believe, because you are no sheep of mine. 27 The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life (John 3:16); they will never be lost (John 3:18) and no one will ever steal them from my hand. 29 The Father, for what he has given me, is greater than anyone, and no one can steal anything from the Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one.
     
    #71 Wes Outwest, Nov 13, 2004
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think you accidently got on the right point.

    Lets find out WHO Christ died for according to John.

    John 3 "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only son that WHOEVER believes on Him might be saved".

    John 6 "I give MY LIFE for the WORLD".

    John 1 "He IS the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY MAN".

    John 10 "He gave His life for His sheep".

    1John 2:2 "Not for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    The way Calvinism "works" in such a scriptural environment so opposed to 4 and 5pt Calvinism - is to "ignore what it can not turn around".

    But the texts are clear - Christ DID die for the SUBSET (His sheep) BUT ALSO for the SUPERSET "the Whole World".

    So the question you ask is a good WHO did He die for? And we find a broad, explicit and expansive scope is the answer. A scope that DOES include His sheep - no doubt.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #72 BobRyan, Nov 15, 2004
  13. corinne

    corinne New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    0
    When Jesus says he lays down his life for the sheep, to me he is saying that he is laying down his life for whoever will believe in him and become part of his flock of sheep.

    A verse later, Jesus says: John 10-16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock {with} one shepherd.

    Arminians do not believe that Jesus laid his life for every single person otherwise than potentially. It is very clear to the Arminians that anyone not believing in Jesus Christ will not be able to go through the Holy Gate into the green pastures of heaven. Jesus's death shows the way for believers, not for unbelievers, but Arminians believe, I think, that everyone has a chance to believe, and if they do, they are saved through Jesus, thanks to his sacrifice.

    Corinne
     
    #73 corinne, Nov 19, 2004
  14. corinne

    corinne New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unbelief is not a sin. If a person does not believe in God, that person does not believe in everything that is attached to God, including sin. The notion of sin as we understand it is foreign to atheists. They think they do right or wrong, they don't think in terms of good or evil. They don't believe in demons or in Satan, so evil/hell does not exist for them anymore than heaven does.

    Corinne
     
    #74 corinne, Nov 19, 2004
  15. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,
    You say that this interpretation would "contradict" other scriptures. It would only contradict "your" understanding of these other scriptures, not the scriptures themselves. Saying that this would contradict other scriptures does not offer and answer to the specific questions on John 10 that I asked in my last post. You did not address the direct questions and specific answers on John 10 from my last post:

    1.)Jesus said that He laid His life down for who?

    The "Sheep" (vs. 15)

    2.)Are all men Christs "sheep", the group that He laid His life down for?

    No, in verse 26 He tells some of His hearers that they are not included in the group He dies for (the sheep)!

    May the Lord bless us both in our study of His marvelous Word.
     
    #75 Southern, Nov 20, 2004
  16. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Superset--the world:

    If Jesus died to redeem everyone, past--present----and future, why are people in hell and going to hell--many of them never having heard the gospel? Did Jesus fail to do what He was sent to do? He said: "It is finished".

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #76 Bro. James, Nov 20, 2004
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    As 1 John 2:2 points out - Christ is the perfect and completed "Atoning Sacrifice" for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

    As Lev 16 points out - the ATONEMENT PROCESS does not end with the ATONING SACRIFICE.

    As Heb 8-10 points out - CHRIST NOW serves in heaven for us in the role of High Priest that is depicted in God's Lev 16 model of Atonement.

    As Daniel 7 points out - that work of Christ INCLUDES the end-time judgment.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #77 BobRyan, Nov 20, 2004
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The WHOLE WORLD - 1John 2:2

    the WORLD John 6

    50 ""This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
    51 "" I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.''

    And "yes" that superset WORLD includes The "Sheep" John 10:15

    Which text were you "hoping" to leave out??

    Do you have an answer for this?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #78 BobRyan, Nov 20, 2004
  19. Southern

    Southern New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,
    Bob if you are not going to address the questions that I asked and the specific answers that I gave, I see no reason to continue dialogue with you. I asked the question dealing with John 10 which this forum is on.

    Jesus said that some were not of His "sheep" in John 10, the same group He just said that He laid His life down for. You keep trying to get around this by not addressing the specific questions and points that I was making.


    If you are not going to address the specific points and continue to bring in irrelevant, rabbit trail subjects, then I pray that you will try to understand my position and try to find an answer for John 10 where Jesus said that some were not of the group that He laid His life down for. This is "Particular Redemption". Until you address this, I have nothing else to say.

    May we both strive for a consistant Biblical exegeseis...

    P.S. There is a forum on I John 2:2. If you think the phrase "world" means what you think it does, why do you not address the link that I provided on John 3:16 which takes care of the "world" passages?
     
    #79 Southern, Nov 20, 2004
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jesus' declaration, "it is finished", is in reference to God's work established for Jesus. By fulfilling 61 major old testament Prophesies concerning the Messiah, all by himself, I'd have to agree HIS work is finished. He has done all that he set out to do. He did not come to conquer the world, but rather to make it possible for man to have everlasting life through FAITH in the Son of God. Mission Accomplished!
     
    #80 Wes Outwest, Nov 20, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 4 of 18
Loading...