John 10:26

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by jerry wayne, Jul 16, 2004.

  1. jerry wayne

    jerry wayne
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    I view this board nearly every day, though I seldom post. But there is one passage that I believe is one of the most, if not the most, explicit regarding unconditional election, and that is John 10:26.

    "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." (NASB)

    Jesus does not say "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe."

    I do not know how this can be interpreted any way other than to show unconditional election.

    Any comments?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Welcome, Jerry.

    I don't know how it can be interpreted any other way, either, but I guarantee the Arminians here will come up with a most imaginative explanation why it doesn't mean what it plainly says. I particularly like that verse in the entire context:

    John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
    25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."


    That sounds very much like this other passage in John, doesn't it?

    John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    John is filled with verses where unconditional election and eternal security is plainly stated.
     
  3. npetreley

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    Let me add this tidbit, in anticipation of a creative Arminian dance to get around the obvious by restricting the verse to the Jews.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    Notice how Jesus refers to the "other" sheep. He says, "I have". Not "I will have". Not "I may have". Not "I will have if they believe". Not "I have if they are willing". But "I have".

    Notice how Jesus says, "I must bring". Not "I may bring if they are willing". Not "I may bring if they believe". But "I must bring".

    Notice how Jesus says, "they will hear My voice". Not "they may hear My voice". Not "I will bring them if they hear my voice and believe". Not "if they hear My voice, and answer the door". Not "if" anything. "They WILL HEAR My voice."

    And what happens when they hear His voice?

    My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

    It doesn't get much plainer than that, folks. ;)
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Jerry,

    Your confusion comes from the fact that you haven't yet understood that Arminians don't even believe that Jesus wanted all men to believe on him while here on earth.

    He hid the gospel in parables, he hardened the hearts of the Jews, and he told his disciples to keep quiet. Does that sound like a man who wanted everyone to believe? Of course not. What Arminians understand is that while Christ was on earth he only had appointed a few from Israel to come to him and learn directly from him; the rest were being judicially hardened, which is why they could not believe (Jn 12:39-41).

    There are two folds of sheep that are to be brought into the pen. Those who were brought in by Christ himself while here on earth (the remnant of Israel) and then those who would believe in Him through their message (primarily the Gentiles because they will listen Acts 28:28). They (the hardened Jews) could not believe because they were not his sheep. They were not of the first fold that Christ had appointed to come in while he was there on earth; instead they were being hardened for the ingrafting of the Gentiles (Romans 9-11). These are the ones the Father had given the Son, WHILE ON EARTH.
     
  5. Me2

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    the two folds are the vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.

    the vessels of mercy are the elect. the vessels of wrath are those who "refused" Jesus and are condemned to be reprobates.

    the elect are the bride of christ. this is Jesus fold.

    the vessels of wrath are to be the fold of the elect. the indirect fold of Jesus. the other fold.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    Me2

    With all due respect, please take your universalism to a thread or better yet another board about universalism. Few, if any, here believe that interpretation and it only drags the discussion down a road no one here really wants to go because of the clear contradictions in scripture to a universalistic dogma.
     
  7. Me2

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    Skandelon,

    Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    I think you should study up on the "liberty of the conscious", that baptists hold so dear. and maybe reread romans 9-11. as Jesus and Paul are both addressing two folds of Sheep.

    Me2
     
  8. Skandelon

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    The two folds are the Gentiles and the Jews.

    Those being shown mercy and those being hardened.
     
  9. psr.2

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    Jerry the problem with your interpretation is thet you stopped reading too soon. I fear the reason is because you found what you were looking for.

    If you had read further it is quite plain;

    John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

    So there is a choice; hence freewill, they can choose to believe or not believe. Hardly unconditional. Let's look further.

    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    Here Jesus tells them even if you do not believe me believe the works, so then they "may know" or may not (freewill not unconditional) but if they will believe the works then faith may come for them to believe the rest as we see a little later. Stay with me.

    39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
    40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
    41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
    42 And many believed on him there.

    So there it is! After all of those things many did believe who had not believed before!

    Hardly a foundation for calvinism.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    Great point psr! [​IMG]
     
  11. psr.2

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    God gives us a great book to get them out of!
     
  12. jerry wayne

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    Skandelon: What happened to the free will of the hardened Jews? Wasn't it unfair of God to harden them so that they could not believe? You said that Christ did not want everyone to believe in Him while He was here on earth. Was free will suspended until after the crucifixion?

    psr2: The verses that you quoted say nothing about who was enabled to believe.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Jerry,

    Paul makes the point that spiritual things are spiritually discerned in Romans 7 and 1Cor 2. He claims that the lost (those not born-again) can not understand them.

    Is it your position that only the saved at the time of the writing of Romans 7 or 1Cor 2 were elect and none of the lost?

    Or is it your position that some of the lost (those that are elect) can understand spiritual things just like a born-again Christian?

    As an Arminian - my position is that the lost will not respond to the "meat" (as Paul mentiones in Hebrews 5) of the Word because 'they can not' understand it. Until they FIRST choose Christ - and FIRST choose to enter the fold of Christ - they "can not" understand those teachings that are sent to believers.

    Notice that AFTER the John 10 incident above - there is another "Event" -- the cross. After that, many even among the priests are converted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. jerry wayne

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    Bob,

    Thank you for your response. Let me give some background on my beliefs. I have always been an Arminian, but for the last several months I have been reading a lot about the doctrines of grace and I am leaning more and more every day to believing that they are true.

    You say that the lost cannot understand spiritual things. If that is true, how can they choose of their own free will to accept Christ if they do not understand these things?

    Thanks for your consideration.

    In Christ,
    Jerry
     
  15. jerry wayne

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    Getting back to John 10:26, if only the sheep believe, how does one become a sheep?
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Jerry,

    Glad to meet you on the board.

    In John 16 Christ says that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the (lost) World of sin and righteousness and judgment". The convicting, condemning message of the Holy Spirit is for the lost World. ALL.

    But in Hebrews 5 and 6 the saints are told to no longer dwell on the Milk of the Word but to move on to the Meat. HOWEVER Paul argues that by lack of putting their knowledge into practice - these saints are not "able" to partake of the meat. How much MORE the fallen lost world to whom the main point of truth is the "first truth" which relates only to conversion.

    It does no good to teach the lost about the Heb 8 role of Christ if they are still standing at the fork in the road - debating if they want eternal life at all.

    The "only thing" that God is clearing for them - is their great need and the gospel solution in Christ. If they choose to halt - to reject that invitation - no "other teaching" is going to be of value to them.

    Christ said "I DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

    EVEN in Calvinist teaching that DRAWING enables the choice for the lost that total depravity disables. The only thing Calvinism rejects is "ALL mankind" in that text.

    A simple contrast between Calvinist and Arminian positions is this.

    Arminians believe "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave..." Calvinists do not.

    The arbitrary selection of the "few" of Matt 7 is what Calvinism calls "unconditional election and limited atonement".

    Arminians don't believe in arbitrary selection (whether you call it that or you call it Unconditional Election with Limited Atonement).

    For us - Matt 7 is a matter of choice. Some chose the narrow way while many choose the wide gate.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The question in John 10 is whether Jesus is the Christ (Messiah). This is an advanced truth at the pre-cross time of the church. At that time the great majority of saved born-again saints did not even know who Jesus was - let alone that He was the Messiah. Only a careful student of Christ could possibly have discerned, in the wandering son of a carpenter - the promised Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior of the World.

    The idea that all pre-Cross saints were lost until the met Jesus and figure out that He really was the Messiah pre-cross, is not taught in scripture. In fact, in a number of places Jesus even tells His followers NOT to spread that around.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Jesus was trying to tell His closest followers that HE was the Messiah and that He was to save the world by dying for the sins of the world.

    Notice that in Matt 16 Peter Himself accepts the advanced truth that Christ is the Messiah. But then rejects the idea of Christ - Savior of the World dying for the sins of the world by saying "May it never be!".

    The things we take for granted were advanced spiritual truths in that day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. jerry wayne

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    Bob,

    Thanks for your response. You state that only a careful student of Christ could discern that He was the Messiah. Actually, Simeon and Anna were both made aware of it (by the Holy Spirit)when Jesus was an infant. John the Baptist knew it and announced it before Jesus had started His public ministry.

    Getting back again to John 10:26, how does one become a sheep?
     
  20. Skandelon

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    Jerry,

    I was a Calvinists for almost 10 years until I began to studing the Arminian soteriology from scholars instead of merely debating the pastors and laymen I came across who didn't really know the first thing about the issues. Please try to objectively look at the points I am making and even if you disagree I think you will come away with a much better understanding.



    Now, you are asking the right question! This is the very question Paul is attempting to answer in Romans 9. Paul was explaining that God could have mercy on dirty unclean Gentiles and that he could hardened his chosen people, the Jews. He is NOT talking about the elect (those being shown mercy) and the non-elect (those he hardens and condemns to hell), as Calvinists presume. He is talking about showing mercy to Gentiles and temporarily hardening Jews. If you read Romans 10 and 11 it is clear the those hardened may be saved (Rom. 11:14) which completely undermines the Calvinistic interpretation.

    Remember this: Calvinism teaches that God hardens men from birth and is just in doing so and uses Romans 9 as its proof text. That certainly seems unfair. But that is not the objection that Paul is answering.

    The scripture teaches that God "held out his hands" to the Jews (Rom 10:21) and longed to gather them under his wings of salvation (Matt 23:37) and was patient and longsuffering with them, not wanting them to perish (2 Peter 3:9). Yet, for the most part the Jewish people had rebelled and rejected God dispite his pleadings.

    THEN, God sealed them in their unbelief by hiding the gospel from them in parables and sending them a spirit of stupor so they couldn't see, hear, understand and believe before their time. In doing so, He provided the means for his crucifixion and the ingrafting of the Gentile people into the covenant of grace.

    His hardening of the Jews was actually a merciful act because it provoked the already rebellious Jews to envy so that they too might be saved. (Romans 11:14)

    KEY POINT: There is a HUGE difference in God temporarily and purposefully hardening a group of already rebellious people and God perminantly hardening all the non-elect people from birth. Romans 9 supports the former, not the later interpretation.

    I guess you could put it that way. I would say that the revelation of God was hidden from them for a time to accomplish God's ultimate purpose of redeemption for all mankind. Read Acts 28:21-28 and see how the Jews were hardened and the Gentiles will listen. Other verses you should consider are: Mark 4; Matt. 13; Luke 12:39-41; and Romans 10 and 11.

    I hope that clarifies some of your questions.
     

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