John 12:32-43

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. 42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

    Where did the authorities "faith" come from in verse 42? Where they regenerated? If not, how did they, being totally depraved, even muster up that? - Skandelon

    Verse 33 concludes the topic introduced with verse 21. Verse 34 introduces a new section with a new question. Verses 35-36 provides their duty and what they should do. Verse 37 provides their response to what they were called upon to do in verses 35-36. Verse 38-39 provides the human perspective according to prophecy of their reaction to the gospel. Verses 40-41 provides the divine perspective of their reaction to the gospel.

    Verses 42 provides "some" who responded by belief in him but this belief is further defined in verse 43 to originate from wrong motives.


    1. Exposure to the light of the gospel -vv. 35-36

    2. Exposure to light produced hardening to the gospel and or false gospel professions - vv. 37-42

    3. This is just one area of hardening to a specific form of light by the depraved nature.

    The fallen man responds by hardening to various types of light in their life even before they are exposed to the light of the gospel. They already have violated their conscience or light of special revelation on many matters before ever being exposed to Christ or the gospel. In other words, they are not strangers to willful sin in their lives long before being exposed to this type of light.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 16, 2014
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  2. agedman

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    This is consistent with the first chapter of John.

    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    Per isaiah, the Word of the Lord accomplishs that which God has purposed, and to thiose elected and chosen out beforehand by him to receive with joy the Gospel, it is indeed the power of God unto salvation, as the Spirit Himself enables them to respond thru faith. but to those still lost in sins, it is message of death and hardening more!
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    I refuse to accept the words "enables them" as that may mean merely conveying or transferring power to men so they can either use it or not use it to come. The Father sends the Holy Spirit to "draw" them by creating faith in them. The term "draw" or the Greek "elkuo" is NEVER ONCE used by Scripture writers to suggest or infer that power or ability is being transferred from God to the one drawn for POTENTIAL use by man to come to God through the gospel. NEVER! To "draw" means to come and is drawing and coming are inseperable simletaneous actions. The term "draw" denotes the source of power whereas to "come' denotes the consequence of that power being exerted.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    I do not refer to enabling as meaning that God common grace applies towards all sinners, that He grants all potential means to exercise faith in Jesus to get save dif they so choose, but that he quickens them, that he literally does a work to grant them herats and minds able to receive the spiritual truth of the Gospel, and that they will indeed respond to it!
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Skandelon has been arguing that John 6 and John 12 and the issue of being given by the Father is being restrictively applied to a very few Jews while the rest of the nation has been drawn by the Father, or according to skandelon's interpetation has been enable to discern and choose between truth and error and have rejected the light as found in the person of Christ and thus are turned over to judicial hardening so that they can no longer be saved.

    To Skandelon's credit he has admitted several times that John 6:36-65 cannot be restricted to the immediate context but has a far greater general application outside of the immediate context.

    Hence, the issue is really neither the immediate or general application but rather the nature of the mechanics irregardless when and who they are applied to, as the very same mechanics applied in the day of Christ are no different before or after the day of Christ regardless who "give" or "draw" or "hardening" are applied to.

    So, lets begin.
     
  7. Skandelon

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    But it doesn't appear Christ has a problem with the motive of their faith... In John 10 for example Jesus even states, " Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    Is believing in Jesus because of his miracles the 'right motive'? Maybe not, but he even seems to acknowledge that their faith can grow with understanding if they will simply take that first step.

    The real problem, according to Christ in this verse is their fear of man and desire to be popular, not the source of their faith. It appears they have the faith needed, but fear and pride is keeping them from acting in that faith. What do you think?
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Faith is the evidence of things "not seen" whereas his miracles could be clearly seen and yet they could not believe even what they saw with their own two eyes. Christ was emphasizing the utter inability to believe which is rooted in their hearts. This is how incapable they were of believing in Christ, they refused to believe in what they could actually see. Hence, the problem is not VISUAL and SUPERFICIAL but is far deeper but found only in the total inability of their heart which has its ultimate root in operating by the wrong motive - the absence of the glory of God - Rom. 3:23.
     
  9. Winman

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    Biblicist equates unwillingness to believe with inability, they are not the same. The scriptures do show some men are unwilling to believe, but the scriptures do not show man is unable. HUGE difference.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    Your distinction is completely artificial and unbiblical because inability is due to unwillingness as Romans 8;7 clearly proves. It is enmity that precedes inaiblity in Romans 8;7. They cannot because they will not and they will not because they are at "enmity against God" and enmity is a HEART ISSUE.

    That is precisely the problem in this context. Their enmity against Christ is so severe they will not believe what their own eyes see and thus they cannot (inability).
     
  11. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  12. Winman

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    And I have shown scripture that refutes your view many times. Man is more than just flesh.

    Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    This was spoken before the disciples received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so is speaking of man's natural spirit he is born with. Jesus said his disciples were indeed willing to obey him in the spirit, but their flesh was weak and caused them to fall asleep.

    This shows that man is more that flesh alone, he is also spirit, and that the spirit is quite able to be willing to obey God.

    Paul also shows this in Romans 7:14-25. This cannot be speaking of a born again person, as Paul said he is "sold under sin" and brought into "captivity to the law of sin". Paul has already told us that a Christian has been made free of sin, and in Romans 8 he says the Spirit has made him free from the law of sin and death. So Romans 7 cannot possibly be speaking of a born again Christian.

    Note also that Paul never once mentions the Holy Spirit in Romans 7. Not once.

    But in Romans 7 Paul says in his mind he approves and delights in the law of God, but in his flesh he cannot find a way to obey it.

    Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Paul, like the disciples in the garden willed to do good. He delighted in the law of God. But in the flesh he could not find a way to perfectly obey, just as the disciples could not fight off the flesh in the garden and fell asleep.

    Total Inability is false doctrine. Men can be willing to obey the word of God, but they are unable to perfectly perform it because of the weakness of their flesh.
     
    #12 Winman, Jan 22, 2014
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  13. BobRyan

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    John 12
    32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

    33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34 So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?"

    35 So Jesus said to them, "The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.

    (An outward sign of the drawing of all - the light is among you)

    36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.


    (The desired response to drawing is that the ones drawn would choose to believe after being drawn. Christ is not zaaapping them into belief - he is urging them to choose belief in vs 36)

    Calvinism's arbitrary selection doctrine does not survive this point.


    37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,


    Here again is illustrated the drawing in outward signs, and also the choice of "some" to not believe (while others obviously chose to believe because of the signs done.)

    It is always the "Drawing" that is then followed by the observation of those who choose to accept - vs those who choose to reject.



    38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

    42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

    So here again we have the choices of man -in response to the "Drawing of all mankind" to Christ.

    At no point doe we have "they did not believe because God did not draw them".



    Always in the form of drawing and motivation to choose light - that is then contrasted to the choices made.

    At no point does the text circle back and blame God saying that those who do not choose light did so because God had not drawn them.





    The same light hardens one and softens another.

    The same light melts wax and hardens clay.

    The difference is not in the light.

    Christ never blames himself for the difference as if He is doing something different to get success and then doing another thing to try to get failure.


    Some do ... some don't.

    All mankind is fallen.

    All mankind is drawn.

    But not all choose to accept and to respond positively to that drawing.

    To reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit - is to choose hardening against Him. At no point does Christ say that the difference is that God forgets to draw some and so they are hardened.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Can you provide proof that they 'could not believe even what they saw,' because Jesus said to them, " But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    And in Matt. 11, Jesus taught: "Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you."

    Clearly Jesus believed that the miracles could have lead them to believe, otherwise he would have been lying in this text. By suggesting they COULD not believe you are giving them an excuse for their unbelief that they do not deserve. You are letting them off easy. You are being humanistic. Stop believing that people are better than they really are by teaching they were born unable to do otherwise. You have way too high of a view of man.
     
    #14 Skandelon, Jan 23, 2014
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  15. agedman

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    This post is so accurate!

    I would like to point out to the folks that, the Greek word translated "draw" is not the same meaning as what modern folks consider as one teased or enticed into agreement.

    Rather the word (helko') is far more authoritative and strong armed word.

    It literally means to drag or pick up and haul. Not as in some "tug of war," but as one hooks up the trailer to the hitch and hauls it behind the vehicle. The trailer has no authority in being drug, nor where it will end up.
    Folks, the picture is one that is not merely "teased" but drug whether they want to or not and taken (hauled).

    BECAUSE of the meaning as indicated by the Greek, the total authority is by God, and not one part relies upon humankind or humankind ability.

    I would add that the word "come" (elthon) means to arrive, for example: "I come (arrived) that they may have..."

    Again, the two words work together - the trailer arrives at the destination in which it is hauled.
     
    #15 agedman, Jan 23, 2014
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  16. Yeshua1

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    So jeremiah/Isaiah/ and paul and peter ALL lied to us, as they stated under inspiration that NONE seek after the Lord, all have turned astray, and that unless He chose to find us, NONE of us would seek Him out?
     
  17. Winman

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    Well, what do you believe? Do you believe Jesus lied to us? Your argument is not with me, it is with Jesus.

    And if you read the scriptures you will see they say men seek after the Lord.

    1 Chr 16:10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

    2 Chr 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

    Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Maybe you should expand your horizons and read other than Calvinist proof texts only. Try reading the WHOLE Bible.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    I do read the entire Bible, so what part about the Lord Himself will give His people their new hearts did you miss?
     
  19. Winman

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    Sorry, I'm not buying your story. I think all you do is memorize Calvinist proof texts!

    Psalm 51:5!!

    How can a corpse believe?

    If God desires everyone to be saved, how come people go to hell?

    God ordains everything that comes to pass, but God does not ordain sin!!

    Black is white, and up is down!!

    You can have your cake and eat it too!!
     
    #19 Winman, Jan 23, 2014
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  20. BobRyan

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    Correction - Everyone is "lost in sin" prior to being saved. The Holy Spirit enables those "lost in sin" to respond to the gospel invitation "we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5



    Indeed it is the death of Calvinism to admit that God would enable the lost to choose eternal life without first zaappping them so far into the Christian walk that they are literally born again saints BEFORE they have a chance to even accept the Gospel. The total REVERSE of Acts 2 and Romans 10 is the Calvinist model!

    Who can doubt it??

    No wonder "redefining all" is the motto for Calvinism.

    'I STAND at the door and KNOCK" not "I suddenly appear on the INSIDE of one arbitrarily selected, drag the one who is there alone over to the door and open it for him".

    "IF anyone hear my voice AND OPEN the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.

    The Calvinist idea that no one alone and without Christ is "enabled" to open the door --- is explicitly refuted by the words "in the text".

    The controversy that Calvinism has is "WITH the text".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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