John 12:32

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MISSIONARY, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. MISSIONARY

    MISSIONARY
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    I had someone ask me why does Christ say "if" I be lifted up. As if there was some uncertainty as to whether the event would take place.

    Give me your thoughts on this "if"
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello MISSIONARY, nice to meet you. :cool:

    John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. NIV.

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. KJV.

    This he said, signifying what death he should die. There is no doubt associated with the 'if' as the next verse sets it in concrete.

    ISA 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

    Any good?

    john.
     
  3. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Double post sorry.

    john.
     
  4. bapmom

    bapmom
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    I think rather than signifying some sort of uncertainty, Jesus is just declaring the reasoning for His death on the cross.....


    "If we send a murderer to jail, than he will be off the streets".....we aren't really expressing an uncertainty, just discussing what is going to happen.
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello bapmom.

    I think I was trying to say that but I couldn't form a sentence. :cool: If I catch the bus to London I shall arrive in London? This does not mean there is a doubt about me catching the bus but what happens if I do? Is that right?

    john.
     
  6. bapmom

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    I agree, johnp

    [​IMG]
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Cool. :cool:

    john.
     
  8. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
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    One meaning of the word is "if" another is "when"

    The sentence is expressing a logical process, a sure thing, not an uncertanty.
     
  9. AresMan

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    Or "since" (given that...)
     
  10. partialrapture

    partialrapture
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    Websters 1828:
    IF, v.t. It is used as the sign of a condition, or it introduces a conditional sentence.

    Jesus is introducing a conditional sentence and he could have just easily of said if I be not lifted up then I will not draw all men unto me.

    This almost reminds me of the old debate "could Jesus have sinned" He was 100% Man, but wait a minute he was 100% God too..
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    busy little word isn't it? :cool:

    john.
     
  12. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Agree with Humblesmith. "If" is used as a conjunctive here in its Core meaning, so Jesus is saying “when” I am lifted up. The circumstance would have to exist in order for the event to happen. When it happens He will be lifted up.

    There is no doubt here in Jesus as we can see in verse 31, ”Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.” It is good as done.
     
  13. npetreley

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    I like this exercise, because it teaches something interesting about Bible interpretation. The only way to misunderstand the meaning of this verse is to focus on the single word "if" and ignore the mountain of evidence beyond the word (or even the entire verse) that it was a foregone conclusion that Christ would be crucified.

    I don't mean to derail this thread into a free will vs. election argument, but I can't help but point out that the arguments for free will are often based on the same error. I see many people focus on the word "whosoever" in John 3:16, or the word "any" in 2 Peter 3:9, and ignore the mountain of evidence for election outside these words and verses. The argument for "whosoever" is particularly misplaced. John could just as easily have said that "whosoever is 6' tall or taller shall not perish," which would continue to use the word "whosoever" but remove all possibility of interpreting free will into the word.

    The inevitability of Christ's crucifixion does not turn on a single word anymore than the doctrines of election and free will.
     
  14. MISSIONARY

    MISSIONARY
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    Here is an interesting explanation that I that I found in one of the commentaries.

    I-will draw all men unto me-After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of My Word and the influence of My Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles.

    So it seems the "if" could mean, "if" the Gospel is presented to the Jews and Gentiles, the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sins and many will be saved.

    It seems the "if" belongs to us "if" we will tell the world of the Gospel, "if" we will lift Him up in our witnessing, preaching, singing then by the power of the Holy Spirit He will draw men to Himself.

    Thanks for all you help! Amazing little word "if"

    God bless,
    Missionary
     
  15. ituttut

    ituttut
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    On a lighter side just for a moment, you point out the use of a single word. As Don Meredith the former Football Player and NFL Announcer of the trio on Monday Night Football would say, “If, ifs & buts where candy and nuts, wouldn’t we have a Merry Christmas.”

    But John 3:16 puts no limit on what God has decreed, as would one being 6 feet tall. I find “whosoever” in verse 16 is what we are to believe, for “whosoever” means me, or you, or anyone else. If we find in our belief something we believe to contradict this “gospel of grace”, then we denounce this as not being what was revealed for this dispensation. If something disagrees with John 3:16, or Acts 16:31 of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, it means we have contradiction of man, and not the Word. The Gospel of John agrees with the dispensational gospel that Christ revealed to Paul. John writing some 30 or so years after the death of Paul confirms what Christ revealed to Paul.

    We first find John 3:16 in Paul’s gospel from Christ Jesus in heaven. Paul says it differently, and then explains it. A child can believe John 3:16, but we have to study the gospel of Paul (study to show ourselves approved) for further understanding. Peter tells us this in his second book in chapter 3.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  16. ituttut

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    A good analogy Misssionary. If this happens, which it did, then after He is lifted up, there is that gospel of witnessing, preaching and worshipping that New gospel from heaven that John was also appointed to write. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” God allowed the Beloved Apostle to write in his last days the gospel that He (Christ) had given to Paul so many years before as shown in John 3:17, ”For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. We cannot find in the Word salvation through Christ Jesus until after Damascus Road.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello ituttut.

    JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

    LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

    john.
     
  18. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hello johnp
    Job knows just as did Moses, David and the others but they did not know His name. We have to know His to be saved for there is no other name under heaven that we can be saved by. We find this in the gospel of Paul, which gospel was given to him by Christ from heaven.

    They of old came by faith; we come through faith. Had Jesus shed His blood at that time? They had to endure until the end. Big difference of being OSAS and having to “sweat” it out. Read Psalms to see how David was “sweating” it out. I believe the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, and when we do we are destined to heaven.
    John - The scriptures he explained were the scriptures written at that time. He speaks of Moses and the Prophets. We must also consider and believe Jesus as He lived as man. As God man walking this earth He plainly tells us that He only came for His own, His people, His nation Israel.

    We are to identify what the gospel was at that time, and what gospel Jesus preached. Was it not the gospel of John the Baptist? Do we Baptist believe this gospel? If so then we must “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”. This is the Catholic belief if I’m not mistaken, and not Baptist belief.

    HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

    john. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Please notice to whom this Epistle is written. It is to the nation of Israel, the Hebrews. It existed then, and it will in the tribulation. What was not combined with their works? They trusted in their works not combining them with faith? The nation of Israel is the only one’s who ever made blood covenant with God. They are covenant people, and we are not of that covenant. He knows His people and He is going to deal with them. They had to come by Faith and Works. We do not.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  19. Calvibaptist

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    Technically, this is what, in Koine Greek, is called a third-class condition (ean with a subjunctive). It does not necessarily call into question the conditional clause (if I be lifted up). Basically, what it says is, "if A is true, then B is true as well." In this case, since A is true, B is true. It is a very strong clause indicating a definite link between the truth of A and the truth of B.

    A lot of people like to translate such a clause "when I am lifted up" because of the truth of the claim. However, that is not the sense of the phrase. We know that the clause is true, but at the time the conditional clause was stated, it hadn't happened yet.
     
  20. Calvibaptist

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    Here's my problem with this commentary's view. In John 12, veres 32 is followed by verse 33.

    John 12:32-33 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

    John explains what Jesus meant by being lifted up. It does not mean us magnifying Him by our praise. It does not even mean the preaching of the gospel. It means His crucifixion. The fact that Jesus was crucified draws all peoples to Him.
     

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