John 12:32

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Oct 18, 2004.

  1. Southern

    Southern
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    I raise this question in response to the Arminians who raise this verse to prove that God "draws"(however that be defined) each and every individual without distinction. If you believe that the "all" in this verse refers to "each and every individual without distinction", on what basis from the context do you assert this?

    As you answer, please comment on the fact that the greek word translated "all", can mean "all kinds". From my perspective, given the context (vs. 20ff.), it is speaking about all peoples and not each and every individual without distinction.

    Thanks for any input
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Southern,

    I, as an Arminian, admit that John 12:32 could be refering to "all kinds." I think it is important to understand John's gospel in that light. Earlier in John 6 Jesus, speaking to a Jewish audience, indicates that only those drawn could come to him. This is consistant with the understanding that the Jewish nation was being hardened and Christ had reserved a remnant of those Jews to disciple and prepare to be the foundation for the future church. Once this and redemption on the cross was accomplished then He would draw all men, both Jew and Gentile. This would include many of those Jews who were not being drawn while Christ was on earth, they were being hardened previously.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    Jesus only began to harden the hearts of the Israelites, generally speaking, after their rejection of Him as a nation and then in 70 A.D. the hammer of the Lord fell on Jerusalem. He honored the Jew by first going to them and later brought in the Gentiles.

    The Spirit of God was drawing sinners as early as in Genesis chapter six verse three during the time of Noah. The Holy Spirit declares Himself to be drawing sinners to Himself in Revelation 22:17. He is alive and well in the earth today, drawing people who have heard the Gospel. It is our ministry of reconciliation [II Corinthians 5:19e] to call people to the One Who died on the Cross for sinners. In 5:19 God is not drawing only the chosen-frozen into the church/kingdom, He declares that 'God was in Christ, reconciling the world [II Corinthians 5:19 & I John 2:2] to Himself.' He was not saving the 'kosmos'/world/earth but was insuring that all human sinners can be saved. Now He makes it the responsibility of sinners to believe in His so great salvation. [John 3:16 & Acts 16:31]

    We are to preach, teach and witness to every sinner because all can come to Jesus. [Mark 16:15] Every created human being . . .
     
  4. BobRyan

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    #1. Jesus did not harden the heart of anyone - they harden their own heart by choosing rebellion.

    #2. The text uses the Arminian format - "I will draw all mankind unto Me".

    This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ does not say “only some of those who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of those who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

    The statement above works as an all inclusive showing that to EVERYONE the call goes out and ANYONE may choose to serve, to honor, to follow Christ.

    By Contrast – Christ shows that the message about being celebate is NOT for all mankind or even all of His followers. Matt 19:11

    Christ uses NO slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human” – though for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here. Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

    The World wide – unlimited scope of Christ’s work is manifest “to save the world”.

    </font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Southern

    Southern
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    Skan,
    At least you would agree that John 12 is not a 'spectrum' by which we view John 6:44. That is my whole point that I am trying to show.

    Ray and Bob,
    You did not address my particular argument:
    That the greek word for "all" can mean all kinds and I gave scripture references to provide that as the context which began Jesus' word's. Unless I just scanned and overlooked it.

    Thanks for your interest in scripture
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Southern,

    As to John 12:32, could Jesus not said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw men from all nations unto Me?" I take this verse to mean that He via the Spirit will draw all persons unto Me. We all believe that He has called men and women to the fold of Christ.
     
  7. Southern

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    Ray,
    Thanks for your view, but my question is trying to get at is how, from the context, do you defend that 'all' should mean each and every individual without distinction (Mark 1:4) when the context is clearly referring to "kinds" of men (The greek word can mean "kinds").

    Please explain, because I have heard the verse used but no one ever cares to prove this interpretation, it's simply assumed.

    In Christ
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    We can all change the meaning of the word "All" using the English dictionary. But the Bible was written in ancient Greek. Not in English. This is how it reads in ancient Greek;
    kosmou toutou ekblêthêsetai exô: kagô an hupsôthô ek tês gês, pantas helkusô pros emauton.
    This is how the Greek word in question is defined in Ancient Greek, in bold;

    pantas, or Pas ( all, the whole ) Entry in LSJ or LSJ or LSJ or LSJ or Middle Liddell
    pantas masc acc pl indeclform
    Frequency in other Authors Greek Word Search
    Corpus Words Max. Inst. Freq./10K Min. Inst. Freq./10K
    New Testament 137853 1252 90.82 1035 75.08
    Greek Texts 4851073 25595 52.76 19466 40.13

    There is no other meaning period. They don't add meanings to Ancient Greek any more because only scholars use it. Another reason is purity of the language.
    Something to think about; They do add new meanings to English words If you wait long enough the meaning you want will come around.

    You haven't proven your side of the issue yet. While insisting others are wrong. I'd be interested in what your view is. Are you balancing you belief entirely on English Grammar and definition or Ancient Greek.
    If this post doesn't address your wanted answer I suggest that you check it out your self. By all means. This argument has already been proven.
    May God Bless you;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. Southern

    Southern
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    Mike,
    I don't claim to be a Greek scholar but your last post showed an unfamiliarity not only with the greek word translated "all", but its usage in the New Testament. I have already refuted the "All means All" claim in the following part of another post. This is from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon.

    . 2 collectively. 2A some of all types. Additional Information: …“The whole world has gone after him”Did all the world go after Christ? “Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.”Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “We are of God, little children” and the whole world lieth in the wicked one” Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “World”and “All”are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “All”means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—ome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …u8212 C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption.

    -Enhanced Strongs Lexicon
    (All the above is from the computerized Strong's)

    I would be more than glad to provide more Lexical proof.

    2.)Biblical-

    "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing "all manner of" sickness and all manner of disease among the people."
    Matthew 4:23

    The KJV translates the same greek word all as "all manner of".

    Mike, Take a look at Mark 1:5 also at how all is used.

    You are simply in error on your assertion that the word "all" has no other meaning. Your Arminian theology depends on these false assumptions, but they do not line up with the Biblical usage of the word.

    May God bless you
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    Strongs defintions are an English version of modern Greek not Ancient Greek. Note the two spellings "Pantas" and "Pas" The first is the Ancient Greek spelling.
    Then How can you argue with an Anceint Greek dictionary?
    Your insistance that you have refuted what "ALL" means is with scholars much higher in learning than both of us. Actually I believe you haven't refuted anything to refute means to disprove and you clearly haven't done that. What you have done is take the same word with a different adjative that changes it's meaning but in John 12:32 there really is no adjative The word men is in Italics meaning it was added to make the rendering more clear for gramar's sake. So one is left with only one conclusion that the word in question means "ALL" and that's all there really is to it. Can you show how the word by itself means any other thing than what it's face value really is which once again means "all inclusive"
    I have respect for your effort believe me I do You are a very intelligent person and I enjoy talking with you. How ever what is actually refuted is your opinion and not mine.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    Mark 1:5 Is the Baptism of all Israel by John the Baptist they flocked to the man for this baptism, and I have no doubt that any on looker would preceive that the whole of Israel was being baptised. John the Baptist was a prophet from God to Israel all those who were of the judean faith were drawn to the man. Even the priest.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. Southern

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    Mike,
    I appreciate your time and effort to discuss these issues, but I expect you to hold me (as a brother in Christ) up to the highest standard in truth (the Word of God) and I must do you likewise.
    I must say that you are simply in error on your understanding of the word "all" and how it is used grammatically. Please take the time to read the following from a website that shows your error:

    …The word "all" in the Bible means without distinction", " and not " without exception " or, you should know that for following Jesus you would be hated by "all" men. For example:



    In Matthew 10:22 our Master says: "and you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake...Logically, there would be no other Christian in the world because all would hate the disciples. Also logically, if our Lord did not exaggerate or lied or tried to spread fear among His followers, and the word all means all without exception (which is in every translation of the Bible by the way), then you and I are guilty of hating the poor followers of our Lord. Does that make sense to you?



    Now I have to go back to my drawing board. I am trying to build a temple as big as the Temple in Jerusalem who could comport "all" the people from the city. That is because we read in Luke 21:38 that "...early in the morning Jesus went into the Temple, and "all" the people came to Him. He sat down (sitting down was a position of authority of a teacher in the Temple, which may prove that they were inside- italics are mine-) and taught them. I want a Temple as big as that!



    How about the baptismal service in Mark 1:5? What a Baptist celebration! It says that..."went out unto him "all" the land of Judea and of Jerusalem, and were baptized of him in the river of Jordan confessing their sins. Too bad Luke 7:30 disputes that stating that the Pharisees and the Lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of Him. This indicates that they were not "all" after all. (This Presbyterian Luke, always spoiling everything! Always messing up a good Baptist baptismal service!). Just when they believed that they had converted and baptized "all" the population of two cities...!



    As seen above, when the Bible mentions the word “all” it means “all, without distinction” and not “all, without exception”. The difference is that without distinction means, for example, all men without distinction for race, social class or background. It also means, for example when it says “hated by all men” it is saying, hated by “all” men that will be contrary to my message. Thus there is a distinguishing factor, that is “men contrary to my message.



    My final appeal to common sense is to stress again that if the disciples were to be hated by all men without exception then you and I and everyone else today would be disciple hater. Otherwise Jesus would be prone to exaggerate or a complete liar! Think about it!

    MY CONCLUSION:

    Let me say that the context shows that all men without "distinction" as to "kind" (vs. 20, greek gentiles) are in view. This is why we are to understand "all" to mean "all without distinction". Your all inclusive interpretation has no basis and cannot be defended from the context.

    In Christ...
     
  13. Paul33

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    This remind me of when Bill Clinton said, It all depends on what is is?

    "All" means different things in different contexts.

    Sometimes it means everyone, and sometimes it doesn't.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    In Mat 10:22 the word men is in Italics. It just wasn't in the original manuscripts. At this particular place in scripture Christ gives the disciples instructions before He gets to verse 22;

    Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Jesus isn't speaking to any one but the disciples.

    All the men Christ spoke these words to were Jews and it is the Jews "as a whole" who are hated for His name sake. Even Christians have hated the Jews. How or why anyone would want to be a Jew is beyond my understanding. At any rate many who profess to be a Jew are not. At any rate this verse of Mat 10:22 is addressed to Jews and is not intended to be any thing other than Jews. You will notice that In Jn 12:32 the context is clearly defined in verse 31;

    Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Christ is the prince of the entire world and the world is what He is speaking about. When He says "all" even though the word "Men" isn't really there we know this is what is meant. And that is all inclusive or everyone in the world.Including the jews them selves

    As far as error is concerned. We could argue this until the sun burns out and never come to an agreement between you and I. "ALL" is still all inclusive. Of course this doesn't mean that's everything on the planet, but rather all of what ever that subject. If it were elected or a special group it should have said so but men 2000 years ago men didn't speak the way we do today. They didn't have the sane grammar in fact they didn't even have a dictionary. All words have a root meaning and is how they are translated what they are saying.
    I've only studied ancient Greek for a short while about a year. I could be wrong but then it's not my responsibility to find out for you if I'm wrong, that's your own judgement or discernment.
    I can only point out what I believe to be truth There is only one absolute truth either your wrong in your thoughts on this word or I am. To make a fair determination takes study. Of course we all want to be right all the time, but only the truth of it will bring peace for our own minds. If you feel at peace about it settle for what you believe it is. after all it's not a Salvation issue. What we trully believe for in our hearts is.

    I've answered your questions now won't you answer one of mine?. What is your opinion of what John 12:32 is saying.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. Southern

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    Mike,
    I think anyone that read the last post can see that "all" does not always mean "all inclusive".
    Your response did not address the way "all" is used in a non-all inclusive sense.

    In Matt. 10:22 it says All. We know that All do not hate the disciples. You said that it just means the Jews,
    Do you hate the Jews? If not, then All doesn't mean all inclusive.

    Again let me say, anyone reading with an unbiased mind can look at the above verses from my last post and see that "all" cannot possibly mean "all inclusive".

    You asked me what my view is on John 12:32. Please read my first post to see what I believe that it is saying.

    In conlusion, The word "all" is always determined by it's context. Whether all without exception or all without distinction can only be decided by looking at the context and in John 12, Jesus is clearly talking about "kinds" ("ALL" without distinction to kind) of men (vs. 20). This was a "shocker" coming from the "just us Israel" mindset of the day. Your attempt to read into this passage what is not there not only doesnt line up with the Biblical usage of the word all, but ignores the immediate context of chapter 12.

    May God bless us both
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Southern,

    I'd like to know why you think that the God who created ALL there is, did not send His son to redeem ALL there is?

    Why do you insist that there is a "special group" that God is after?

    Your theology short circuits God's plan of redemption for man, "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God!" Why would God be interested in only an "elect" group which equates to some out of ALL? Why not ALL out of ALL. After all It is God the Father's desire that NONE should perish. None is defined as NOT ONE OUT OF ALL!

    Afterall, the new earth is going to be magnitudes greater in size than this present earth, because it must support a city that is 1500 miles high, wide and long. This earth could not possibly support such a structure, our atmosphere is a mere 175 miles thick.
     
  17. Southern

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    Wes,
    If you would like to know these things, start a forum on a particular topic, more importantly on a specific passage of scripture where we can discuss what the Bible says about these things and not what you or I think.

    Please comment on John 12:32 and why this should be taken in a universalistic (each and every individual who ever has lived or will live without exception) sense.

    In Christ...

    The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this.
    -C.H. Spurgeon
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Then you do not understand the very nature of a BBS system. It is all about what you and I, and anyone else thinks!
     
  19. corinne

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    Timothy 2:6 - who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.

    Romans 5:18 - So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    Hebrews 2:9 - But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for EVERYONE.

    2:2 -
    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the WHOLE WORLD.

    Jesus' sacrifice draws all men to the cross. Jesus died for all men, potentially (meaning that men are free to believe or not believe, in which case if they believe, Jesus's sacrifice will benefit them, and if they do not believe, the sacrifice will not benefit them)


    Corinne
     

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