John 12:47-48

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Oct 15, 2002.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    While the Calvinists say that Jesus will save all whom He came to save, Jesus says in this text that some whom he came to save will reject Him.

    Define "the world" in this passage as narrowly as you want; the fact still remains that some of "the world" whom Jesus "came not to judge" but "to save" will not believe on Him and will therefore be judged by His owrds in the last day.

    As for me, I will say that "the world" here means "any man" - just as the text asserts - and that Jesus came to save "any man" but that many men, even most men, will reject Him and be lost. The passage clearly conditions election on our acceptance of the Lord.

    This passage of Scripture effectively obliterates the whole Calvinist notion of Christ coming to save a pre-selected group of men.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. russell55

    russell55
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    These verses are Christ's mission statement for his first coming to the world: He came not in judgement, but for salvation.

    Those who rejected him would be judged by his word, not at this first coming, but at the last day.

    I think that using them to try to say something about the extent of the atonement is going beyond the idea Jesus was trying to get across to his listeners.
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Russell,

    Of course you think that - for to think otherwise is to end all controversy an the subject!

    I know this is a technicality, but we do need to be technical when it comes to the Scriptures. The "atonement" does not properly refer to the provision of Christ's sacrifice. "Atonement" means reconciliation. Literally "at-one-ment."

    The death of Christ did not put all men at one with God. Therefore His atonement is certainly limited to those who believe. Believers and believers only have the atonement.

    But He did come with the intent of making salvation possible for all men. That is what John 12:47 says. And even if you try to define "the world" in the passage as something less than all men, it doesn't help your case one bit, for Jesus still says that He would not judge the rejectors because He came to save them, not to judge them. Therefore the whole idea of Christ coming to save a pre-selected group of people falls.

    I note that you are the only one who has been brave enough to take a stab and answering this one.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
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    The word "world" is used differently depending on the context in the Bible. Biblical Calvinists and anti-Calvinists have gone round and round on this for centuries. But a simple reading of the Bible shows that the word "world" does not, and cannot, always mean every single person who will ever live on the earth.

    Taken out of context, anyone can "prove" lots of false doctrines using verses of the Bible.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Ken,

    In order for Calvinism to survive this text "the world" must mean "the elect world" for Jesus said He came "to save the world." So Let's assume for agument's sake that "the world" here does mean "the elect world" and see what that would have Jesus saying:

    "And if any man of the elect world hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the elect world but to save the elect world. He of the elect world that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    The only way to escape the obvious ramifications of such would be for you to have Christ talking about two different worlds at one time. You would have to have Him saying,

    "And if any man of the non-elect world hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the non-elect world but to save the elect world. He of the non-elect world that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    Certainly you will not attribute such mumbo-jumbo to the blessed Savior of the world!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
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    You are in error here, Mark. "World" in this context, being spoken to a Jewish audience, would have meant Jews and Gentiles. In your rabid anti-Biblical Calvinism you are trying to force the use of the word "elect" into this verse, and it just plum won't work.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite [​IMG]
     
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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  8. russell55

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    Ahh, come on. World in this passage cannot be talking about all individual people. Jesus' mission in the first advent was salvation for the world, which he accomplishes by saving people out of the world. If his mission was to save all individual people, then his mission failed miserably.

    When he comes a second time, his mission will be judgment for the world, which he accomplishes by judging all those who reject him and his word.
     
  9. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Russell,

    Though I certainly believe the text speaks of all men, it doesn't aid Calvinists one iota to claim "the world" is limited. The fact still remains that the "any man" who might reject Christ is among "the world" He came to save.

    It's almost like the Lord had refuting Calvinism in mind when He spoke those words.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  10. KenH

    KenH
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    1) The word "world" is not being limited. It includes all classes of people that make up Jews and Gentiles.

    2) That has got to be the silliest thing you have said yet in this forum, Mark. Thanks for the laugh. [​IMG]

    Have a great day, my friend. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ October 16, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Ken,

    Do you really not get it or are you just stone-walling?

    However you define "the world" in this passage, it does not make a bit of difference in the fact that the "any man" who might reject Christ is included among those He came, not to judge, but to save.

    Therefore Calvinism falls before Jesus' words.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. shilo

    shilo
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    Mark you're right on the money with this verse..World means "WORLD"

    Calvinist like to play terminology games to try to confuse people..Like the word "world" they like to pick and choose when they want to accept it as Every man. They won't ever take the Bible in context or at its face value.

    "I came not to Judge the world but to save the world" Jn 12:46

    "For God So loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life". Jn.3:16

    "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.." Acts 11:18

    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent" acts 17:30

    "he hath given assurance to ALL men, in that he hath raised him from the dead" Acts 17:31

    "for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowlege of truth."

    "Of How much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHERE WITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace" Heb 10:29

    Mark you're right..the Calvinist doctrine crumbles at the word of The Lord.
     
  13. shilo

    shilo
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    I typed this verse wrong..it should read as follows:

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was santified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29)
     
  14. KenH

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    I understand that the Bible teaches the doctrines of God's amazing grace throughout. The Bible certainly does not teach the self-salvation by man's corrupted free will while he is spiritually dead and separated from God that you and other non-Calvinists teach.

    Got it? [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    There you go again - misrepresenting the snot out of non-calvinists. Will you please read a little more before continually making such asinine statements?
     
  16. KenH

    KenH
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    Scott,

    I am an accountant by trade. I'm just cutting to the bottom line. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  17. ScottEmerson

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    Scott,

    I am an accountant by trade. I'm just cutting to the bottom line. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then you're pulling a spiritual Arthur Andersen here.
     
  18. KenH

    KenH
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    That's a good one, Scott. Blindsided me for once. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  19. shilo

    shilo
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    Your absolutly correct Ken..The Bible doen't teach self-salvation nor does it teach that man can will any other man or himself to be saved..

    However..the Bible says if you recieve him and believe then you will be saved.

    "He came to his own and HIS OWN RECIEVED him not"

    But as many as RECIEVED HIM to THEM (those who recieve) Gave he power to be the son's of God even to THEM that BELEIVE on his name"

    which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

    It's God's will to Save man.."Who WILL have all me to be saved, and to come to the Knowledge of God" Tim.4

    All man has to do is accept and believe

    "Sirs what Must I do to be saved?"
    They said BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"
     
  20. KenH

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    Shilo,

    The differences in this forum are not over the necessity to repent and believe and live a life of holiness. The discussion centers around three options. 1)Whether all men have a natural ability to do this(free will), or 2)does God give the same, equal chance to every man by enabling him to come part of the way to Christ but leaving it up to man to finish the task(free will), or 3) does God do all of the work in bringing man to Christ and in preserving him as He brings him to glory(free grace) as man responds with the new heart God has given him.

    I contend that options 1 and 2 amount to self-salvation as man must contribute something before he is regenerated and is given a new heart and new nature. Option 3 gives all of the glory to God, not just in lip service but in practicality as well, as it is God who is responsible for the whole salvation process as the saved person simply responds with the ability of a new heart and new nature graciously given to him by God in regeneration.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite [​IMG]

    [ October 17, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     

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