John 15: Will you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    "In the beginning was the Word..."

    Jesus is the Word of God. Here is what the Word of God said, that is, what Jesus said:

    JESUS, the WORD of GOD: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Remain in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who remains in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

    Please explain why Jesus would bother teaching his disciples about the possibility and the implications of not remaining in him.
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Paul has a similar thought in Romans 11 in his allegory of the grafted branch:

    "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."
     
  3. Doubting Thomas

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    Good points, gentlemen. I was referencing the same two passages within the "Obedience" thread in the "Other Religions" section below.
     
  4. rc

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    Can not man deceive himself? Is he not wicked? Aren't YOU wicked? Only God knows a mans heart. If it weren't for these words man could say he believes and do what ever he wants. I "chose" Jesus so now "I'm in!"... Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we go to heaven!

    If you know Greek, these are imperatives Ben NOT indicative staments. God knows if you are saved but you don't know your heart... Your assurance is based on these imperatives. These verses make me cling to Christ all the more because I so desperatly fall short of His glory! That is the intent of the verse. For the elect, respect and humility, and for the the reprobate, self decieved confessing people who "say" they know Christ but don't,something to condemn them all the more for their arrogance.
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    I like the way Christ explained it in ;

    Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    If we indeed can't fall why is there so much scripture about falling.

    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

    2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. rc

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    Always taking the descriptive and making it the prescriptive ILL. There are two intents to messages with imperatives. We all agree that in the church there are those who TRUELY believe in God and with all their heart try to follow God's Word. And then there are those who are hypocrites and fooling themselves. In America only 6% of the congregation tithes, so you figure it out..sad...

    If you TRUELY believe and follow me per se .. the church of RC... If I said if you get near this certain rocky ledge YOU WILL fall and die I said this for two perposes. One, to further make good on my gaurentee that I made to keep you with me forever, thus by giving you this warning I know that it will cause you to stay away from that ledge and keep you safe. My intention serves it pupose. BUT there are those whom I know that are in my church that really do not believe me cause they do not do what I say. These go off and check out the ledge and die.... Proving NOT that the ones believing can fall but proving those who aren't my believers will die.
    They way to find out if you believe is to believe or not believe the imperative command.
    Only one not thinking it through would say "Well, the believer can still fall off that ledge" disregaurds the intent of the command and the person who intended it.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    Ben is RIGHT!
    One can lose one's faith in God, and thereby render him/herself unacceptable to God who will not save the one because of LACK OF FAITH!

    Each of the Apostles, AND especially Jesus, warn against falling away or losing one's faith in God, because in doing so one renders one's self unfit!
     
  8. Ben Elohim

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    That's just a bunch of babble designed to avoid the question at hand and the ramifications of Jesus' teaching at John 15. Indeed Jesus IS giving them a prescription. He is warning them to REMAIN in him on they will be cast into the fire. In order to do this remaining IN HIM, one must actually and truly be IN HIM. You cannot remain in something you are not in - it is an absurdity. Hence, Jesus teaches them to remain in him or there are consequences. What a useless teaching from Jesus since we learn from Calvinism that there is no way for anyone not to remain in him and be burned in the fire.
     
  9. johnp.

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    How unfit do you have to be Wes before the Lord's everlasting love stops? Give us some idea so we can see how selfrighteous you have to be to stay alive please. This is vital information. How can we tell we really believe? I mean really really believe.

    How fit do you have to be Ben to keep the Lord's everlasting love? Give us some idea so we can see how selfrighteous you have to be to stay alive please. This is vital information. How can we tell we do enough? I mean really really enough.

    How unfit for a Christian that he should sleep with his father's wife!
    1CO 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
    How unfit for Paul to tell us that we will receive the reward of meeting Jesus and being made perfect all the sooner because we sinned well. What a useless teaching from Jesus...

    It is an everlasting love. You do not understand love. You do not understand scripture and you do not understand sin.

    johnp.
     
  10. johnp.

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  11. johnp.

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    What did God do ScottEmerson but cut Israel off? He never cut the Jew out of the Kingdom did He? Well? Yes or no! :cool: Who is telling us that God cut off the natural branches but a Jew? Not just a Jew but a Jew of Jews.

    Not all Israel are Israel. When the last Gentile comes in His attention shall return to Israel the nation.

    johnp.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    The Lord's Everlasting Love never stops, you see, because the Lord is Everlasting, His love is everlasting! We are created human with a Time Limit placed on us by God. Our human faith is the only thing that man can possess through which God saves us into everlasting life in his love. So if we can stop Faithing, and many do stop faithing, we stop being everlasting too! Our eternal life is dependent upon our Faith! We have a 120 life span, according to scripture, in which we come to faith and either stay in faith or lose our faith.

    Self-righteousness has nothing to do with Salvation into eternal life.
    Salvations is not in accordance with what we do either!

    Salvation is through FAITH ALONE!
    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So to answer your question about vital information You must love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and as Jesus told us, we must, "believe in Him who sent me"....and never stop believing!
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi rc;
    What are you trying to say here ?. You do understand the subject,don't you.
    This is the question;
    "Will you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition? "
    What does all this gibberish that keep's spewing from you mean?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Ben Elohim

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    Can somebody answer three questions here?

    1. How can you remain, or not remain in Jesus, unless you are truly IN Jesus in the first place?

    2. Why would Jesus give his own disciples a command to remain in him or be cast into the fire and burned?

    3. Is it possible for the disciples that he chose NOT to remain in him?
     
  15. rc

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    If there are hypocrites in the church Wes, how would God tell them through His Word (being written by Paul, etc.) that they are hypocrites and not really saved, even thougth they think they are?
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Hypocracy is illustrated in the word of God, so when you "hear the word", if the shoe fits wear it!

    Our minds are made so that we do understand when the bible is addressing a condition that applies to us. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is always there when one reads the Word of God. The Holy Spirit illuminates the Word to us, and "convicts us of our condition". We would not know that we were sinners if we could not recognize the sin!

    Give God the credit for creating a truly marvelous creature in man. Yes, we are made in HIS image!
     
  17. rc

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    Boy Wes, if you give glory to God as much as you do bragging about man, I might think you are a Christian !
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    rc,
    Rest assured that by comparison, my praise of, and for God far outstrips my praise for HIS Creation and anyone with eyes, can see the wonder of HIS creation.
     

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