John 17 on definite atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. Herald

    Herald
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    John 17:9-10 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.”

    In the Johannian narrative the word ‘world’ (kosmos) is used seventy-nine times. In chapter 17 it is used eighteen times; that is 23% of the times ‘world’ appears in the gospel.

    In John 17 Jesus offers an intercessory prayer to the Father on behalf of His disciples; the twelve minus Judas. He sets up a contrast between His disciples and the world (v. 9). He references the disciples twice in the same verse. In the beginning of verse 9 Jesus references them by saying, “on their behalf.” In the latter part of the verse He references them again when saying, “those whom You have given Me.” The eleven were given to the Son by the Father. By itself this passage is not a convincing enough to prove definite atonement; but there is a greater proof in John 17.

    John 17:20 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;”

    Why doesn’t Jesus pray for the world? Why does He limit His prayer for those whom the Father has given Him? If He was just praying for the eleven (v. 9) that would be one thing; but in verse 20 He makes it clear He is praying for “those who believe in Me through their word.” The conclusion is clear – Jesus is praying only for the elect.

    Matthew Henry writes:

     
  2. zrs6v4

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    I connect much of what Jesus said here with chapter 6 of John namely verses 35-45. Same language is used and really seems to impact the truth of God's electing process.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    There are many who primarily look to the Apostle Paul for New Testament record of the teaching of election, However careful study shows this same doctrine taught by the Apostle John starting with John 1:12, 13. We also find it in the record of Acts and Peters letters.
     
  4. convicted1

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    Well, Jesus came to His own(elect Jews), and His own received Him not.

    He wept over Jerusalem, because He was willing to gather them like a hen does her brood, but they would not.

    In the OT, the sacrificial lamb was an atonement for all of Israel, but only those who chose to believe what the Prophets told them, obtained the benefits of that lamb's atoning blood.

    The scapegoat which Aaron prayed over, confessing all of Israel's sins upon that scapegoat, and then was led out into the wilderness by the hand of a fit man, took all of Israel's sins with it.

    Christ died for the ungodly.

    Christ tasted death for evey man.

    Christ took away the sin of the world.

    God so loved the world......
     
  5. OldRegular

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    John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    What did the Father give?

    John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Ephesians 2:4-9
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Amen. I agree with all of these verses. Please address the verses I posted. Christ died for the ungodly. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, Jesus did indeed die for everyone w/o exception.
     
  7. Jerome

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    And as John Calvin himself noted in his Commentary on John 17:9,

    "Christ himself afterwards prayed indiscriminately for all, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," Luke 23:34."
     
  8. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Yes....that everyone believing may have life!
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    This is a helpful post and one of the greatest passages of scripture. So much grace and promise.....The covenant of redemption being explained clearly and meant to be a great comfort to the people of God:thumbs:
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    [/FONT]
    Jerome...nice quote.......but looks like you missed the main point of Calvins teaching...lets look together;


     
  12. David Lamb

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    Jerome, please correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be saying something like: "Even Calvin, no less, in his commentary suggests that atonement is not definite." However, you have ripped the words you quoted right out of their context. Calvin's commentary on John 17.9 starts (my emphasis):
    Hitherto Christ has brought forward what might procure for the disciples favor with the Father. He now forms the prayer itself, in which he shows that he asks nothing but what is agreeable to the will of the Father, because he pleads with the Father in behalf of those only whom the Father himself willingly loves. He openly declares that he does not pray for the world, because he has no solicitude but about his own flock, which he received from the hand of the Father.

     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Once again, your "it must mean something else" spiel.:BangHead:

    I meant to write what I wrote: Calvin's admission regarding what another Scripture teaches.


    Oh horrors!

    The OP already covered your party line "teaching" on this passage.


    In a commentary, one's "teachings" have to reckon with ever-present Scriptures.

    The Bible tempers one's theoretical schemes.

    As Spurgeon noted:

     
  14. David Lamb

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    Please stop banging your head against that brick wall, Jerome - you'll end up in A&E otherwise. (That's "ER" to you :) ).

    I know we differ on this matter, but I would use a word like "understanding" or "explaination" instead of "admission" here.

    I hope you didn't take offence at my post - that was not intentional at all.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Jerome
    Just because we exposed your out of context quote{not the first timewe have seen this} is no reason to get bent out of shape.
    No wonder those pastors saw the need to reform that church you were in...they needed to bring biblical truth there......is that when you departed?:thumbs:
     
  16. Jerome

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    You indeed have falsely charged me previously, as you are doing now.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    David saw the same thing...you pulled that quote out of context..using it to mis-represent the whole thought offered in the commentary.....Some of us actually look to see the context of the quote when possible.
    You do this quite often...You pull Spurgeon quotes out and several have called you on it. usually Rpon..I think...I do not keep track of this as meticulously as you do...when you remind someone of what they have previouly posted......you do not deny this..do you?
    if I showed you the complete quote from calvin and posted it...why do you say I falsely accused you?

    Hey Jerome...since I have your attention....why do you not offer scriptural correction when you post, instead of posting your little gothcha type posts.
    You do not seem to like it when someone calls you on it. So why do you do that....look at your post archives....tell me I am wrong.
     
  18. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Thanks.:wavey:

    But

    —Calvin admits

    really pales in comparison to

    Spurgeon's:

    —in Calvin's Commentaries he often cuts his own Institutes to pieces


    Doesn't it?

    How would you restate that?
     
    #18 Jerome, Jan 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2012
  19. psalms109:31

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    You can pray for the world all you want to, but what will it do if His own people live like they do?
     
  20. David Lamb

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    I wouldn't restate it. I would put it into its context in Spurgeon's Sermon "Characteristics of Faith", preached on 27th May 1860:
    We must now hurry on to the third and best stage of faith. The servants meet the nobleman—his son is healed. He arrives at home, clasps his child and sees him perfectly restored. Add now, says the narrative—"Himself believed and his whole house.' And yet you will have noticed that in the fiftieth verse, it says that he believed. "The man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him." Now some expositors have been greatly puzzled; for they did not know when this man did believe. Good Calvin says, and his remarks are always weighty, and always excellent—(I do not hesitate to say that Calvin is the grandest expositor that ever yet thought to make plain the Word of God; in his commentary I have often found him cutting his own institutes to pieces, not attempting to give a passage a Calvinistic meaning, but always trying to interpret God's Word as he finds it)—Calvin says this man had in the first place, only a faith, which relied for one thing upon Christ. He believed the word Christ had spoken. Afterwards he had a faith which took Christ into his soul, to become his disciple, and trust him as the Messiah.
     

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