John 17 on definite atonement

Keep up the fine investigative work there, Brother Jerome! :thumbs:

When you find where they "waffle" at times, they will accuse you are misreading, or misapplying that quote every time.

I have a feeling that if John Calvin stated that the sun came up in the west, some would swallow that hook, line, and sinker.


Keep up the good investigative work!! :thumbs::thumbs:

 

Willis my friend .....I posted they entire section in post 11..you can read it for yourself...he did not quote the passage in context...read it for yourself....

 

Thanks for typing all that out David.

I once offered a passage of similar length and one of these false accusers claimed it really needed to be ten times longer

 

Thanks for the read there Brother. Let it be known that I disagree with John Calvin; I know that comes as a shock to you... :laugh:


The reason why Jesus prayed for those only, was because they were the only ones given to Him by God. On this, we both agree. But there's more to the picture than is being painted here.


The Jews that had their eyes blinded, their ears dulled of hearing, were those who profianed the Lord's altar. This happened over a period of years. You can read this in Malachi. It was through years of continual rebellion that this occured. Furthermore, they were blinded and hardened so that Jesus, would indeed, be the sacrificial Lamb, the Scapegoat, etc, so that He would fulfill the Law. If they had seen with their eyes, and heard with their ears, they would not have crucified Him. W/O crucifixion, there would be no fulfillment of the Law. Look in John 6 at who Jesus spoke of coming to Him.


First off, let's look at this verse:

Now, if you single this verse out, then your case is a "slam dunK", but there is more to this than what is being purported.


Let's delve a little further:

What was the will of the Father? First and foremost, it was to fulfill the Law. It also was to seek and save that which was lost. It was to tear down the middle wall of partition. It was to have no longer Jew nor Greek(Gentile), male nor female, but one spirit. All of these were accomplished by the works of the cross, and His resurrection, and ascension back to the Father.

These are the ones that Jesus was praying for. Have you seen the Son with your natural eyes yet? All that the Father gave Jesus, were the ones with Jesus at the time He lived here on earth. Now you can read in John 12:32 "If I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

 

It is a foolish thing to pray for oneness of this world , no way can this be living apart from Jesus only in Jesus can this happen

John 17:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Our prayer is that we be one and we should not pray this for the world, but for us believers so we can be what God called us to be light to the world pointed them to Jesus. I praise God through Jesus, He doesn't end it where this O.P. is trying to take it.

That it is true God is also including those who hear their message the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

 

Reply to Opening Post

As Matthew Henry noted Jesus does pray for the world in verse 21, so the issue is how John used the Greek word translated world. He used it in two ways only to refer to fallen mankind and secondly he used it to refer to the corrupt system of fallen mankind.

So to take the false statements one at a time:

1) Jesus prays for the world in John 17, therefore suggesting definite atonement (the Limited Atonement of the TULIP) is off base.

2) Jesus limits part of the scope of His pray to the disciples because they need protection such that they can present the gospel to the world, all of fallen mankind.

3) Yes Jesus is praying for the elect, those that believe in Jesus because of the gospel, but this verse provides no support for the fiction that individuals were elected before the foundation of the world. This is a classic example of circular reasoning. If individual election is based on "faith in the truth" as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, then His prayer points to the world as meaning all of fallen mankind.

 

Not very nice of an Old regular Baptist! Read the following about an Old Regular Baptist Association. Might be close to you. {My highlights and corrected a few typos.}

SOVEREIGN GRACE ASSOCIATION OF OLD REGULAR BAPTIST CHURCHES OF JESUS CHRIST.
This appears at present to be one of the smallest Old Regular Baptist Associations. They are however one of the strongest representatives of the original doctrine, faith and practice of the Old Regular Baptist in modern times. The churches of this association stress the Godhead, Infallibility of the Old and New Testament, Election by Grace, Original Sin, Justification by the Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ, sinners being called to Repentance ,Eternal Security, a properly ordained ministry. Their ministers preach a Travail from Nature to Grace,(there must be a begetting before there can be a birth.) They believe in a Last Day in which there will be a resurrection of the dead the just and the unjust,the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked will be eternal. They baptize by immersion, take the Lord's Supper with wine and unleavened bread which is followed by feet washing. Old Regular Baptist are non-instrumental preferring to line their songs in different meters. The members of this association practice modesty of dress. Sisters belonging to these churches do not cut their hair, brothers do not let their hair grow long. They have no secret orders among their membership. Sovereign Grace Association doesn't however infringe on any of it's Corresponding Associations and leaves them to settle their own matters. Like all Orthodox Old School Baptist they deny Freewillism, Arminism, Gospel Regeneration, Works for Eternal Salvation, Pre and Postmillenalism. While there are young people attending their churches, there is no Sunday Schools, Missionary Societies, ETC.. Sovereign Grace Old Regulars believe the church of today has no right to place something in the church that Christ and the Apostles did not establish; that to do such would be adding to the Word of God. You will find these churches are very open to newcomers/outsiders. Visiting one of these churches is like taking a trip back in time, you will often hear shouting and praising the KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS, old time singing and love being manifested throughout the service,if you long for simple New Testament Worship visit one of these Old Regular Baptist Churches.

http://www.webspawner.com/users/truebaptist/index.html

 

Willis...this is exactly what calvinism teaches...except the All being drawn are still being drawn..the Op pointed this out....all that shall believe Their word.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: I do not agree with everything calvin taught or I woul:laugh:d sprinkle baby heads with water....

 

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0139.htm

"And now, in the next place Christ Jesus is the center of attraction; even as a standard is the center of gathering. We want unity in these days; we are now crying out, "away with sectarianism." O for unity! there are some of us who truly pant after it. We do not talk about an evangelical alliance; alliances are made between men of different countries. We believe that the phrase "Evangelical Alliance" is a faulty one,—it should be "Evangelical Union,"—knit together in Union. Why! I am not in alliance with a brother of the Church of England; I would not be in alliance with him if he were ever so good a man! I would be in union with him, I would love him with all my heart, but I would not make a mere alliance with him. He never was mine enemy, he never shall be; and, therefore, it is not an alliance I want with him,—it is a union. And so with all God's people, they do not care about alliances; they love real union and communion one with another. Now, what is the right way to bring all the churches to union? "We must revise the prayer book," says one. You may revise it, and revise it as long as ever you like, you will never bring some of us to agree to it, for we hate Prayer Books as such, however near perfection. "Well then, we must revise the doctrines, so that they may meet all classes." You cannot; that is impossible. "Well then, we must revise the discipline." Yes, sweep the Augean stable. And then after that, the mass of us will stand as much aloof as ever. "No, but we must each of us make mutual concession." Indeed, I wonder who will, except the Vicars of Bray, who have no principle at all. For if we have to make mutual concession, who can be guarantee that I must not concede a part of what I believe to be true? And that I cannot do, nor can my brother on the opposite side. The only standard of union that can ever be lifted up in England, is the cross of Christ. As soon as we shall begin to preach Christ and him crucified, we shall be all one. We can fight anywhere except at the foot of the cross,—there it is that the order goes forth, "sheath swords;" and those that were bitter combatants before, come and prostrate themselves there, and say, "Thou dear Redeemer, thou hast melted us into one." Oh! my brethren, let us all preach the gospel mightily, and there will be union. The church of England is becoming more united with dissenters. Our good friends at Exeter Hall have gone a very long way to bless the world, and uproot the exclusiveness of their own system. As sure as ever they are alive they have taken the most excellent step in the world to pull down the absurd pretensions of some of their own brethren, to the exclusive claim of being "the Church." I glory and rejoice in it! I bless God for that movement, and I pray that the day may come when every bishop may do the same. And I do not glory in it merely because I look upon it as the beginning of union, but because of the preaching of the gospel. But, at the same time, I know this, let their example be followed, and the barriers between dissenters and the church of England are not tenable. Even the nationality of Episcopacy must yet come down. If my lord, the bishop of so and so, is to have so many thousands a year for preaching to a number of people in Exeter Hall, I have as much right as he has to a State grant, for I serve as many Englishmen as he does. There is no one church in the world that has any right to take a farthing of national money any more than I have. And if there are ten thousand gathered here, it is an unrighteous thing that we should have no subsidy from the State, when a paltry congregation of thirteen and a half in the City of London is to be supported out of national money. The thing cannot be held long, it is impossible; Christ's Church will one day reject the patronage of the State. Let all of us begin to preach the gospel, and we shall soon see that the gospel is self-supporting; and that the gospel does not want entrenchments of bigotry and narrow-mindedness, in order to make it stand. No, we shall say, "brother, there is my pulpit for you. You are an Episcopalian, preach in my pulpit, you are right welcome.
The Episcopalian will say, "You are a Baptist, and my brother, there is the parish church for you." And I just announce that the first chance I get to preach in a parish church, I will do it, and risk the consequence. They are our structures, they belong to all England, we can give them to whom we please, and if to-morrow the will of the sovereign people should transfer those edifices to another denomination, there is nothing in the world that can prevent it. But if not, by what law of Christian love is one denomination to shut its pulpit doors against every other? Many of my dear friends in the Episcopal Church are willing to lend their edifices, but they dare not. But mark you? when the gospel is preached fully, all those things will be broken down. For one brother will say, "My dear friend, you preach Christ and so do I, I cannot shut you out of my pulpit." And another will cry, "I am anxious for the salvation of souls, and so are you, come into my house, come into my heart, I love you." The only means of unity we shall ever get will be all of us preaching Christ crucified; when that is done, when every minister's heart is in the right place, full of anxiety for souls—when every minister feels that, be he called bishop, presbyter, or preacher—all he wants to do is to glorify God and win souls to Jesus, then, my dear friends, we can maintain our denominational distinctions, but the great bugbear of bigotry and division will have ceased and schism will no more be known. For that day I anxiously pray, may God send it in his own time. As far as I am concerned there is my hand for every minister of God in creation, and my heart with it, I love all them that love the Lord Jesus Christ. And I feel persuaded that the nearer we all of us come to the one point of putting Christ first, Christ last, Christ midst, and Christ without end—the nearer we shall come to the unity of the one Church of Christ in the bond of holy permanence.
And now I close by noticing the last sweet thought—"I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." Then Christ Jesus will draw all his people to heaven; he says he will draw them unto himself. He is in heaven; then Christ is the chariot in which souls are drawn to heaven. The people of the Lord are on their way to heaven, they are carried in everlasting arms; and those arms are the arms of Christ. Christ is carrying them up to his own house, to his own throne; by-and-by his prayer—"Father, I will that they, whom thou hast given me be with me where I am," shall be wholly fulfilled. And it is fulfilling now, for he is like a strong courser drawing his children in the chariot of the covenant of grace unto himself. Oh! blessed be God, the cross is the plank on which we swim to heaven; the cross is the great covenant transport which will weather out the storms, and reach its desired heaven. This is the chariot, the pillars where with are of gold, and the bottom thereof silver, it is lined with the purple of the atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And now, poor sinner, I would to God Christ would pardon thee; remember his death on Calvary, remember his agonies and bloody sweat—all this he did for thee; if thou feelest thyself to be a sinner. Does not this draw thee to him?

"Though thou art guilty he is good,
He'll wash thy soul in Jesus' blood."

Thou hast rebelled against him, and revolted, but he says, "return backsliding children." Will not his love draw thee? I pray that both may have their power and influence, that thou mayest be drawn to Christ now, and at last be drawn to heaven. May God give a blessing for Jesus' sake. Amen."

C. H Spurgeon

 

I agree with you. That was very nice at all. I apologize to everyone of my Calvinistice Brethern. :jesus: :godisgood:

I went to the SGA back in either 2007 or 2008 for their annual association meeting. One of their churches, Mt. Moriah, is located outside of Salyersville, Ky. in Magoffin co., hosted the assoc. that year. The Tarklin ORB church allowed Mt. Moriah to use their building in Paintsville, Ky. so that they could host it, seeing that is was bigger. It was a very blessed day. I really enjoyed it. They preached Jesus Christ, and that is all the ole boy wants to hear! Bro. Mike Slone(old regular on here; lower case "o" and "r") is the Moderator of that association. They sure made me feel welcome. At that time, they were in correspondence with Thornton Union(Tarklin's assoc), Bethel ORB assoc., Northwestern PB assoc., and Original Mountain Liberty ORB assoc. There could have been another at that time, but Bro. Mike could tell you more about that. A good friend of mine belongs to a church in OML, and I believe him to be a true Brother in Christ.


Bro. OR, we aren't Brothers by our theologies, but by our adoption into Christ. That is what makes us Brothers. Sure, it's good to fellowship with the ones of the same beliefs, but we can learn from the other side of the debate as well. This causes us to study harder, to see things through their eyes, if you will. Even if we still remain in our same beliefs, we learn to get a better understanding of where the other side of the debate gets their beliefs. This way, we do learn more about Jesus through His written word.

 

Thanks for that very gracious response. I left the hills of southwest Virginia January 9, 1952 to enter the Navy and have been gone except for visits since then. I still miss the hills and the Old Regular Baptist Church.