John 3:16-17

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by tenor, Sep 22, 2005.

  1. tenor

    tenor
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    If God chooses some for salvation and condemns others to damnation, how does John 3:16-18 fit into the plan?

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
    (KJV)

    Does whosovever mean what it says?

    Thanks, Tim
     
  2. webdog

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    It can't. Some calvinists will say that God loves His elect, and hates the rest. The "world" according to them is not everyone who ever lived, but Rome.
    It does. Whosoever, whoever, it is still "who" out of "everyone". Calvinists will say that this is true only that ' of course whosoever believes will not perish', like if I were to say, "yes, all red firetrucks are red."
     
  3. 4His_glory

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    Easy answer. Sure it does, but not every one will believe now will they. Repentance and faith are a gift of God. So nobody will believe unless God enables them to, obviously He chooses not to enable everybody.

    He did love the world, but He can also hate the world at the same time. God's general love for the world is different than His specific love for His elect.
     
  4. tenor

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    I generally agree with you. Are you saying that you believe that God purposely condemns some to hell with no chance of salvation?

    I'm interested in learning other's views of interpretation.
     
  5. tenor

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    It can't. Some calvinists will say that God loves His elect, and hates the rest. The "world" according to them is not everyone who ever lived, but Rome.
    It does. Whosoever, whoever, it is still "who" out of "everyone". Calvinists will say that this is true only that ' of course whosoever believes will not perish', like if I were to say, "yes, all red firetrucks are red."
    </font>[/QUOTE]Webdog,

    Do you consider yourself a Calvinist? Isn't that a very literalistic reading? (Is that a word?)
     
  6. webdog

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    No I do not, as I do not consider myself Arminian either.

    I believe John 3:16 should be read as literal as possible. It is an easy passage.
     
  7. tenor

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    Thanks. I too, agree with you on both parts.
     
  8. 4His_glory

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    I generally agree with you. Are you saying that you believe that God purposely condemns some to hell with no chance of salvation?

    I'm interested in learning other's views of interpretation.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, keep in mind the Bible tells us that men are condemend allready because of there sin nature. The fact that God saves any is amazing since all are desrving of death and hell.
     
  9. webdog

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    I generally agree with you. Are you saying that you believe that God purposely condemns some to hell with no chance of salvation?

    I'm interested in learning other's views of interpretation.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, keep in mind the Bible tells us that men are condemend allready because of there sin nature. The fact that God saves any is amazing since all are desrving of death and hell.
    </font>[/QUOTE]This is deceptive. By default of not "electing" some to Heaven, God would be "electing" the rest to hell. There is no way around it.
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello tenor nice to meet you. :cool:

    JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    The word is ambiguous at best and means different things to different people. I am glad I have my understanding of the word because it causes me to live without a contradiction. If God loves the world why does He not pray for it? I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9. Why if God so loves the world does He tell us that the world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Why does He say this if His love is everlasting? Jer 31:3.

    If God so loved the world then love has failed. 1 Cor 13:8 love Never fails.

    The word should be seen to mean the world as opposed to Israel. For God so loved the world that He cut Israel off to rescue me.

    How's that? :cool: I am a Calvinist of the supralapsarian sort.

    john.
     
  11. 4His_glory

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    No webdog, they are already on their way to hell, so to choose some for salvation is not to choose others to hell.
     
  12. johnp.

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    There is no way around it.

    john.
     
  13. billwald

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    The rest of the page explains that no ne has control over his salvation because the HS goes where he will and does what he wants.
     
  14. tenor

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    PLease define supralapsarian for this music guy.

    Thanks, Tim
     
  15. El_Guero

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    John

    A supralapsarian? I bet you were predestinded to write that ...
     
  16. El_Guero

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    The definition of supralapsarian depends upon whether or not the individual was predestined to play by the rules and use a standard definition, or whether they were predistined to mislead ...

    Typically, those that are supralapsarian in their theology believe that before the fall God determined who would be predestined to salvation and then set the events in motion.

    A very brief sequence of events would be something like: predestine what will happen, allow the fall, send Christ as the redeemer, cause the elect to choose redemption, redeem, and then reject what is left.

    AKA hyper-calvinism note below ...

    While 6 point calvinism is truly 2 decree, and while supralapsarian implies a two decree nature in hyper-calvinism, THERE are some Calvinists that find two decree a very objectionable statement.
     
  17. El_Guero

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    Brother James Leo Garrett would be your best resource to study further on systematizing theology ...

    The only complaint that I have ever heard is that he is too thorough ...

    Calvin is a truly good resource, but he is not as easy to understand as Garrett. But, it does not hurt to understand what he ACTUALLY believed. Calvin is probably the second most misused resource for Christians (the Bible is probably first).
     
  18. johnp.

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    :cool:

    Strange that ain't it? :cool: I put it on the other thread but I'll put it here as well. I just love it when double predestination is referred to as hyper. :cool:
    By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

    Calvin was the original hyper Calvinist?

    john.
     
  19. webdog

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    :cool:

    Strange that ain't it? :cool: I put it on the other thread but I'll put it here as well. I just love it when double predestination is referred to as hyper. :cool:
    By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

    Calvin was the original hyper Calvinist?

    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. True calvinism by default is hyper calvinism.
     
  20. johnp.

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    Thank God I don't think like an Arminian that is a truth. :cool:

    john.
     

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