John 3:16 and Calvinism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Pioneer, Nov 29, 2002.

  1. Pioneer

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    In order to accept the teachings of Calvinism one must either re-define the words "world" and "whosoever" or pretend that God didn't really mean what he said.
     
  2. KenH

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    It's not really a matter of re-defining, but of defining correctly based on the various meanings of "world" and the context in which they are used.

    Yes, whosoever will may come. Amen, and amen. [​IMG]

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  3. russell55

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    Don't think so:

    For God so loved the world...

    God loved the world in this way:...

    that He gave His only Son....

    He gave His only son

    that whosoever believes in Him...

    so that absolutely anyone who believes in Him...

    should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    will not perish, but will have everlasting life.

    It was a loving act for the world that Christ gave His only son to provide a means whereby men can be saved if they believe.
     
  4. Rev. G

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    In order to accept the teachings of "Arminianism" one must either re-define the words "predestine" and "elect" or pretend that God didn't really mean what he said.
     
  5. Jeff Weaver

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    Pioneer

    Dont have to redefine or doubt anything to believe John 3:16 and believe in the soveriegn rule of God.
     
  6. Travelsong

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    LOL :D
     
  7. Pete Richert

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    Noone disagrees that "whosoever" (absolutly anyone) who believes will be saved. We only think that the only ones who will do so (or even wish to do so, or even have the slighest desire to do so) will have to be drawn by the Father first. I think some crazy holy man named Jesus said something about that once and I usually believe what He says.

    [ December 06, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Pete Richert ]
     
  8. StandAskWalk

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    Does world hunger mean everyone in the world is hungry? Does world peace mean we are all at peace? What is the transport of the word world. Would a Jewish person at the time interpret the word world as every past/living/future person in the world or would they interpret it as a non-Jew/Gentiles? Does v16 and 17 mean that since God loved everyone in the world that everyone in the world will be/is saved? Does v16 have a different meaning when read in content of the rest of the dialog to Nicodemus then it does plucked out of content? What Does v18 mean when it says he that believeth not is condemned already? Does the verse in content say a person has the ability to be the the whosoever that believeth or does it just say that if they believe they will be save?

    Just some questions that need to be answered before someone attempts to use this verse to prove or disprove a doctrine.

    Dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus:
    John 3:1-21
    1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    (KJV)

    [ December 06, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: StandAskWalk ]
     
  9. Bro. James Reed

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    I am glad you gave those examples of world. The word world can mean so many different things, we can not interpret it to mean one thing all of the time. If I say world, I can mean Earth, or the people of Earth. If I say worlds, I can mean all planets. When we say someone is on their own little world, I'm sure we've all heard this before, that does not literally mean there is, for example, a Planet James that I am frollicking on, millions of light years away from Earth. Another example, The Wide World of Sports. My goodness, we've just found the 10th planet in our solar system. Come on. How about we all use our brains a little bit, or better yet, quit using them and depend on God for the answers. We will never find the truth until He chooses to reveal it to us. God Bless. Bro. James

    [ December 06, 2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James Reed ]
     
  10. Sularis

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    Consider in that entire passage the meaning of the world is the same - the meaning doesnt change

    Then read the passage again each time changing the meaning to a different meaning of world.

    The problem is that the Calvinist tends to define people as Arminians as those who disagree with them.

    I believe there exists pre-destination - I believe that there is a group of elect -(both permanent and temporary) - much like the apostles designed to keep the church alive and to adjust the course of history as man tends to wander a little off course.

    But I believe that God is a loving Father who desires to have a meaningful relationship with us, and so allows us our freedom within HIS Sovereign and Moral will, so that we can develop and mature.

    I believe that God can still allow us our free will and still manage to have things come out the way He wants them to; when He wants them to.

    That to me is greater sovereignty and power, then God having to force us to do His will lest we thwart or delay His good works.
     
  11. Frogman

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    Amen.

    I agree with this completely, the last statement concerning what 'a holy man' said I also agree with if you correct your usage of "usually."

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas

    I haven't died, or been raptured, just been extremely busy and haven't had opportunity to get on board. Just thought I'd check in with all. Merry Christmas.
     
  12. Charlie T

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    Sularis:

    I am not sure I understand.

    Are you saying that God chooses the Elect and all of the Elect responds,

    or,

    are you saying that God chooses a plan and hopes man responds to choose Him?

    In other words, who makes the final decision in each man's salvation? Is it God (Effectual Calling) or Man (Conditional Calling)?

    Charlie
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Sad but true.

    In the light of day it is "God so loved the World and by World He means that He loved the Arbitrarily selected FEW of Matt 7 - loving the FEW alone, dying for the FEW alone, and then CALLING that the WORLD since it sounds better and more loving to Love the World rather than just an arbitrarily select FEW".

    And so we see even on this thread the "justifications" for not accepting the term WORLD as WORLD. Yesterday I fed the WORLD and by that I mean the FEW that are my family members living in my home. It is just the "context" that allows me to say that ( at least if I were 5-pt Calvinist ).

    You have to admit I "seem bigger" when I claim to have "fed the World".

    By that same argument the "entire World" is saved - every last person. Strange how scripture never argues that Calvinist view of "world".

    He became the atoning sacrifice for "our sins and not for our sins only but for those of the entire world" 1John 2:2. No wonder scripture claims "God so loved the World that He gave"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Actually they will have been drawn by God as in "I will Draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

    And yes we DO agree that it is only ALL MANKIND - only those DRAWN that will respond.

    The Drawing of God ENABLES what total depravity disables - so they may choose life. But JUST as the perfect and sinnless Adam did not CHOOSE life simply because he was ABLE and SINNLESS - so the sinner who is ENABLEd to choose will not always CHOOSE life.

    What's not to get?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 13, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  15. Sularis

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    Im saying that in no way does pre-destination or election have anything to do "directly" with salvation - but rather the results of that salvation or the working out in faith that believers impact on the world around him

    I believe that God extends unto man either through the hearing of the Gospel or direct interaction the ability to choose good or evil - while during that time of choice being unencumbered by his sin nature.

    I believe that God can narrow the choices to some pretty unpleasant things.

    Believe or be blinded forever
    Believe or be struck by lightning until you die
    Believe or die by some horrid means
    Believe or be crippled in some horrid fashion

    These tend to be the people that God has elected to do extra special good works - but should they refuse - they would get smitten - and God will accomplish His will another way - despite man
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    2 thess 2:13 ... God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation. Seems clear to me ...
     

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