John 3:19-21

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. Moriah

    Moriah
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    Calvinists and those from the reformed religions like to use John 3:19 to support their false beliefs of total depravity. Total Depravity meaning no one can believe in God after learning of Him.

    John 3:19-23 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

    John 3:19 does not say all people love darkness instead of the light. John 3:19 is about those who do love darkness instead of the light.

    John 3:21 shows us that there are people who come into the light.

    I will use two fictional people to try to explain the scriptures 3:19-21. I will call the people Annette Joy and Brandon Pine. They are not Christians. They are two movie stars who are living together. They have much fame and money. They have good looks, and many fans.

    They do many things for charity. They feed poor people. They build homes for the homeless. They adopt orphans. They do many good things.

    All good things are from God, but not all people who do good say they have done good through God. They do not credit God. They will not do that, because they love darkness more than they love the light. To come to the light and let it be known that what they do right is actually through God would also mean they then would have to stop doing that which is sinful. They would also have to worship God. Therefore, this they do not do.

    However, there are people who live by the truth, and they come into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. There are people who do right and want all to know they only do so through God.
     
    #1 Moriah, Mar 9, 2012
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  2. DHK

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    Therefore: all people love darkness instead of the light, as you said.
    But these are the saved; the elect, if you will. Before they came to Christ they were evil and their works were evil. They also loved darkness rather than light for their deeds were evil. Only the light of Jesus could open their hearts to the truth.
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Look at the wording in verse 21. They come to the light -meaning they were previosly not in the light but in darkness like the rest. Why do they come to the light? Coming to the light proves that God has worked in them bringing them out of darkness into the light. They do not get the credit for coming into the light, the credit belongs to God for them coming out darkness into the light.

    Look at your own analogy of Annette Joy and Brandon Pine. What you called good is what God calls sin because anything done for any other purpose than for the glory of God is sin (1 Cor. 10:30). Jesus said there is NONE GOOD but one and that is God (Lk. 18:19) but you repudiate what Jesus said. You say there are many who are good and doing Good in God's sight. You are confusing what people regard as "good" versus what God defines as Good. God defines "good" by his law and to violate the law but once makes you a sinner not a righteous person. By God's standard of "good" there is "none righteous, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10-11). By your standard there are many righteous in God's sight. Who shall we believe? Jesus and Paul who denies there is even "one" that is righteous OR Moriah who believes there are many who are righteous?????????

    Sinces Romans 3:9-11 deals with ALL THE WORLD including GENTILES (v. 9) and Jews (vv. 19-20) then how do you interprete "none....no, not one"??
     
  4. billwald

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    > Total Depravity meaning no one can believe in God after learning of Him.

    NO! You are wrong. Or substantiate from one of the Reformed creeds or catechisms.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Missed that one! Good observation Bill! He does not even understand the Calvinistic view on Total depravity. Of course that makes no difference to Moriah, he makes things up as he goes and then treats them like established facts.

    Indeed, John 6:45 says that everyone single one that is taught and learned by God cometh to Christ. Hence, no man can come to Christ in faith except the Father draw him and drawing consists of being taught by God and every single one taught by God comes to Christ.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
     
  6. Moriah

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    Total Depravity is the belief that no one can believe in God after LEARNING of Him. That is what total depravity is. You think you struck it rich when you misunderstood what I said. Anyone can learn of Jesus, many people do, but that does not mean ALL come to Jesus after learning of him.
     
  7. Moriah

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    You are greatly confused.

    Total depravity
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, total corruption, or Augustinianism[citation needed]) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is offered.
     
    #7 Moriah, Mar 10, 2012
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  8. Moriah

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    I see you have a hard time following anything any one says unless they claim to be from the reformed religion. I explained to you that the people in my story were sinning BECAUSE THEY DID NOT DO WHAT THEY DO FOR THE GLORY OF GOD.
    You do not understand the scriptures. You are fearful to use the word ‘good.’ You are so fearful about it, that you cannot even see that there is no reasoning in your judgment of my using the word ‘good’ in my story. According to your logic, the Apostles sinned when they used the word ‘good’ at all, unless it was in direct reference to God.

    Acts 9:36 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas ), who was always doing good and helping the poor. Acts 10:33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.” Acts 11:24 He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord. Acts 19:25 He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: “Men, you know we receive a good income from this business. Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. Romans 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Romans 15:2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. Romans 15:14 [ Paul the Minister to the Gentiles ] I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another. 1 Corinthians 7:1[ Marriage ] Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 1 Corinthians 7:8
    Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 1 Corinthians 7:26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 1 Corinthians 7:35
    I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 10:24
    Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. 1 Corinthians 10:33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. 1 Corinthians 11:17 [ The Lord’s Supper ] In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 6:8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. Galatians 4:17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. Galatians 4:18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? Galatians 6:6 Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:12 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Ephesians 6:8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. Philippians 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. Philippians 4:14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. Colossians 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 2 Thessalonians 2:17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word. 1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 1 Timothy 1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 1 Timothy 2:10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 1 Timothy 3:7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. 1 Timothy 4:4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
    1 Timothy 5:10 and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. 1 Timothy 5:25 In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden. 1 Timothy 6:18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. Titus 2:7In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness Titus 3:8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. Titus 3:14 Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good, in order that they may provide for daily necessities and not live unproductive lives. Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. James 3:13 [ Two Kinds of Wisdom ] Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.1 Peter 2:15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 1 Peter 2:20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 1 Peter 3:10 For, “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. 1 Peter 3:11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. 1 Peter 3:13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 1 Peter 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 1 Peter 3:17 It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    According you your misunderstanding of what you falsely accuse me of, the Apostle did wrong in saying the word 'good' where they did in these scriptures.
     
  9. Moriah

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    According to your false logic, Jesus goes against himself.

    Matthew 7:11
    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
     
  10. Moriah

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    That is your assumption, it is not the truth.


    You just yourself called them evil. So how did they follow truth before they come to the light? Your reasoning is not reasonable.

    People have their hearts opened by being TAUGHT about the Truth.
     
  11. DHK

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    No assumption. Read Romans 5:12-19.
    Only saved people are able to do good in God's sight. Verse 21 is speaking of saved individuals. All are born evil. Once saved then they are able to do good. Read Eph.2:8-10
    And so they do. But it is not by doing good works. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. The works follow salvation. Therefore verse 21 is speaking of the saved.
     
  12. Moriah

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    I have read Romans 5:12-19, and my statement stands.
    We must all come through Jesus to get to God. That does not mean evil people cannot do anything good in life. Matthew 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    According to your reasoning, evil people would not know how to give good gifts to their children. However, Jesus says evil people DO know how to give good gifts to their children!

    Luke 6:33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.

    You have been refuted, DHK. Jesus explains that sinners do good to those who are good to them.
     
  13. DHK

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    Jesus did not say some people. Therefore you are adding to the word of God. "Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil."
    That is a timeless truth that is true of the entire human race. There are no exceptions. It is a statement similar to Heb.9:27

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    --It doesn't say "ALL men." It doesn't have to. It is a timeless truth that is applicable to the entire human race. We do not add to the word of God.
    That is true in the sense that a mother nurses her child, a father provides for his family. And that was the illustration Jesus was giving. But as far as salvation is concerned even those works are as "filthy rags" if they are doing them in order to get to heaven. There is nothing that a person can do to merit salvation.
    You are taking this statement of Jesus out of context. It was a rebuke to his disciples. It is easy for a disciple to confine his works to those that are believers, but what about going to the drug addicts, the drunkards, the homosexuals, the beggars, those that are down and out, the homeless, etc. It is easy just to minister to either believers, or even to those unbelievers who are your unsaved friends and have a good relationship with you. He was not speaking of salvation. Stop taking Scripture out of context.
    The only thing you have demonstrated is your ability to take Scripture out of context.
     
  14. Moriah

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    I am not even going to read what you posted to me, DHK. You speak confusion. If all only love darkness, then how can they accept Jesus when they learn of him?

    Do not answer...just move on, because I do not ever want to discuss with you again.
     
  15. Moriah

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    According to DHK’s argument against me, it is evil to feed the poor. According to DHK’s argument, it is evil to build houses for the homeless. According to DHK’s argument, it is evil to adopt orphans. According to DHK’s argument, only Christians give to the poor, build homes for the homeless, and adopt orphans.

    Those who love darkness instead of the light are who can do those good deeds, but reject Jesus. They refuse to come to the light and say they do good deeds through God.
     
    #15 Moriah, Mar 10, 2012
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  16. DHK

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    Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
    God does not look upon the good works of the wicked as "good." He sees them as evil, for they themselves are evil. That is why he had cities like Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho completely destroyed. Sodom was so completely destroyed there was nothing left of it. Lot would not have been able to go back and "plunder" the city. God destroyed absolutely everything--infants, valuables, everything. It was an evil city; evil people, ripe for the judgment of God.

    God does not look upon the good of the unsaved as "good."
    They are "filthy rags."
    Or don't you believe the Bible where it states:

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

     
  17. Chowmah

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    And i will use scripture to interpret

    JOHN 3 [19] And this is the condemnation, THAT LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Many will quote John 3[16-18]. But if you go on to read the next 3 verses in John (19-21) you will see that unbelievers have NO LIGHT IN THEM because they prefer darkness. Could it be there are some that say they believe and think they believe, but actually believe not due to their deeds? Their works?

    ISAIAH 8 [20] TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: IF THEY SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.[21] And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.[22] And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

    Not only to the law as the Jews believe and not only the testimony (of Jesus) as the gentiles claim. It is both.
     
  18. Chowmah

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    Here again, its the law and the testimony

    PSALM 78 [1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. [2] I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old: [3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. [4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. [5] For HE ESTABLISHED A TESTIMONY IN JACOB, AND APPOINTED A LAW IN ISRAEL, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: [6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: [7] THAT THEY MIGHT SET THEIR HOPE IN GOD, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:

    Who opened his mouth in a parable Moriah? Yup, Jesus Christ. And this scripture says he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, that they might set their hope in God and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
     
  19. Moriah

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    I was not talking about evil people who sodomize others. I was talking about evil people who do good deeds. I was explaining about those who do good deeds but love darkness instead of the light. I had in mind those who might wonder about how people can do such wonderful things for other human beings, but why they reject the most beautiful and pure thing they will ever hear about, Jesus Christ. They reject Jesus and do not come to the light, because they who do good deeds for others sometimes, they love the darkness in their live more.
    It is a trained person in false doctrine who posts the scripture containing the words “filthy rags.” Study more of the passage.

    4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
    no ear has perceived,
    no eye has seen any God besides you,
    who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
    5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
    who remember your ways.

    But when we continued to sin against them,
    you were angry
    .
    How then can we be saved?
    6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
    we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
    7 No one calls on your name
    or strives to lay hold of you;
    for you have hidden your face from us
    and have given us over to our sins.

    8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father.
    We are the clay, you are the potter;
    we are all the work of your hand.
    9 Do not be angry beyond measure, LORD;
    do not remember our sins forever.

    Oh, look on us, we pray,
    for we are all your people.

    10 Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
    even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
    11 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
    has been burned with fire,
    and all that we treasured lies in ruins.
    12 After all this, LORD, will you hold yourself back?
    Will you keep silent and punish us beyond measure?
     
  20. Moriah

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    They reject the true light. Jesus is the true light. John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Are you trying to sneak in your condemnation of a true Christian? You have no idea to whom you are saying such evil untruths to, for I have a powerful testimony, Jesus Christ himself saved me. I will answer your question regardless of your acceptance of the truth. Jesus fulfilled the law, see Matthew 5:17.
    Do you know what the “perfect law” is? I do not think that you do.
    James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.
     

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