John 3.3

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Feb 8, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    John 3.16 is everyone's favorite Bible verse to recite. But this is emphasized at the expense of other scripture. The rule of basic economics teaches us that when we choose one thing another invariably suffers. (you can't have your cake and eat it too.)

    Look at John 3.3; What did Christ say?

    "...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    Christ spoke this directly to Nicodemus, a teacher in Israel. Note vs. 4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    If a man is not dead why is Christ telling Nicodemus a man must be born again. Yes man is physically alive and his spirit is alive, but the flesh is dead because of sin, it is corruptible, the spirit is in bondage to sin; This spirit must be born again; now how does this happen.

    Jesus said except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Note in vs 3 it is stated a man cannot see the kingdom of God; while in vs.5 it is said he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    So, can we not conclude that a man in a natural condition cannot neither see, nor enter into the kingdom of God, but being born again he is able to see the kingdom of God and then to enter into that kingdom which for the first time he sees.

    You can pretend that men are not spiritually dead all you want to, but the Word of God does not support this pretension. It declares our helplessness; and it declares this to be eternal except we undergo this new birth;

    How can we undergo this birth when we don't realize we are not yet born? We can't realize this naturally because Jesus has said apart from being born again a man cannot see, nor enter into the kingdom. :confused: Is the word of God confusion, or do men confuse the word of God?

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. Frogman

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    Are there no dissenters in believing man can not see, nor enter into the kingdom of God before being born again?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Doubting Thomas

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    Why would anyone disagree with that? [​IMG]
     
  4. Ps104_33

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    Precisely, how can anyone enter into something that he cannot see? Abd how can you see the kingdom of God before you are born again?

    Spititual birth must precede all actions of the spiritual life that a person does like seeing or entering the Kingdom of God.

    That which is born of flesh (unregenerate) is flesh and that which is born of spirit (regenerate) is spirit.
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Disagreement would be the Calvinist stance would it not?
     
  6. Frogman

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    Yelsew,

    Do you believe a man cannot be saved until God has effectually called him?

    I may have been misunderstood; my point from my first post is that man (because of his sinful nature) is blind, or dead, whatever you prefer and is unable to see the kingdom of God much less enter into the kingdom.

    First is required the illumination of God upon the sinner; then he/she sees themselves as God does a sinner; None of this is done from the free-will point of view, because man is happy in is bound condition, he will follow a religion, or a religious system, but never see his inability to enter into the kingdom by this way except God reveals it unto him.

    The scripture also lends proof to the thought that man is spiritually dead; and thus cannot be saved through his choice because even his choice is dead.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Primitive Baptist

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    "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)

    Jesus is talking about the one who is born of the Spirit more so than the new birth itself. He said, "...so is every ONE that is born of the Spirit."

    I have heard men say that they "got saved" at a certain place and a certain time...oh really? No man knows where the Spirit comes from or where He is going. He just knows that something has happened!
     
  8. Frogman

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    P/B,

    When did you know something had happened?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Yelsew

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    I believe that there is only one call (type, not frequency) and it has different effect on different people. The idea that there are different types of calls falls into the same type of false religion that says there are a variety of "graces", and that grace is something that God gives out like a commodity seems completely preposterous to me.

    Let's say that man is spiritually separated from the Kingdom of God, and therefore he cannot see it and if not seen it cannot be entered. I say that because the Kingdom of God is all around us and all that it takes to see the Kingdom of God is submission through belief in Jesus to the regeration of our spirit from sin nature to righteousness nature by the Holy Spirit. Then we not only can see it we are in it.

    If you mean by "Illumination", the conviction of the sin state, I agree. But I believe that once the sin state is "illuminated" the person must choose by his/her own free will whether to believe and repent from the sin state and thus receive regeneration or to continue in sin.

    Like I said, spiritually dead means separated from the source of life, a separation that man cannot overcome. Redemption to the source of life requires man's belief in that source. Belief is a matter of exercising the free will. It is not a work, and therefore cannot be the matter of a boast. But belief is the only way, Jesus said so!
     
  10. Frogman

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    Yelsew,

    I would agree that the Gospel is universal. But the call to salvation cannot be heard by all men, for what man would not sieze an opportunity to rid himself of the burden of sin...unless he is shown by a higher source than himself that this sinful nature is a burden to him. Until sin is seen by man as a burden he will not turn to God because sin offers him immediate gratification. Until God moves upon him and provides the effectual call; the Gospel message, the Gospel call is noise pollution to him.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. William C

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    Only one type of call? With the evidence found in scripture of the supernatual calling of Paul and the other apostles, or even Moses of the OT, how can you still believe that there is only one "type" of call. Maybe, I don't understand your meaning of "frequency," do you mean that as the number of times that one is called? Please explain.

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
  12. William C

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    Why would God make the gospel universal if the atonement is not? Is God "two-faced", one who says on the one hand everyone and anyone who believes will be saved thus impling that everyone and anyone has that ability (which is the meaning of Universal), but on the other hand, you claim God has a secret will that only a select few have the ability to hear the gospel (so it's not really Universal is it?).

    You can call that gospel "universal" if you want, but you better redefine the word "universal" or redefine God's plan, because you make Him out to be a deceiver of men.

    Arminians should agree with all of this. I know Jacobus Arminius did. (except for the assertion that no man would fail to sieze that opportunity) Some obviously fail to sieze the opportunity to rid themselves of sin (even among those who believe in Christ).

    But the point is, Arminians, also believe that God must move in a person's life before they can be saved.

    The effectual calling is unique to God's divinly appointed messengers, which I've pointed out in my interpretation of Eph 1. The gospel call is noise pollution to the ones who refuse to listen, but "it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16). Faith comes from hearing the gospel message which was first preached by Christ (Rom. 10:17).

    You are taking away man's responsiblity to respond to the Holy Spirit's moving and the GENIUNE gospel call of the scripture, by inferring that everyone has either been "set apart from birth" for salvation, or left without any ability, hope or opportunity to receive what you so call a "universal" gospel message.

    Your view creates an unacceptable paradox. Why? Because it makes God two-faced, he says, I desire everyone to be saved, I make a "genuine universal" call to everyone, but in reality I have only provided salvation for the elect. He would not allow us to make these types of claims in our daily activities, would He?

    I know, I'll have a raffle to raise money for my Church's building project. I'll offer a call for anyone to participate and I pretend anyone can win, but I'll have the prearranged winners selected before the raffle even starts, I'll choose the people I like better to win, the others think they are really being presented an opportunity to win, but I'm just humoring them so I don't look as guilty when my friends win. Come on! That's called deception, and God would not allow it and he certainly would not participate in it Himself!!!

    God would not go against his own character. What you guys call a "paradox" makes God out to be a flat out liar to everyone who is not predestined for salvation.

    Some of you have said that the reason I won't accept Calvinism as truth is because I don't like where it takes me. Your exactly right, because it takes me to believe God is deceptive to the world and that is an unacceptable interpretation of the Word.

    Bro. Bill

    [ February 09, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bill ]
     
  13. romanbear

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    Hi frogman;
    I have no problem with being born again.It's how you explain it that I do not see.To begin with, if our flesh were dead then we would be dead period.Before we come to Christ our spirit is dead because of sin.it's our spirit that needs to be born.Our flesh responds to the call of the Holy Spirit.and upon believing in Christ if we give our Love to the Lord and surrender our will to Him then we are born Again.Remember devils believe and tremble.Believing is merely the point at which the seed is planted.If we don't surrender then this seed dies.There is no growth with out total surrender.This is not works for salvation.We cannot grow on our own in order to grow we have to let Christ have control of our will.This is where our control ceases and God's control takes over.We have to let God have control in order to grow.we cannot produce fruit on our own.in fact we can't do anything in Christ unless we surrender to Him.
    Romanbear
     
  14. Frogman

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    The above makes your last statement error. Anything relying upon man to do anything in order to prevent the seed of the Word from dying, becomes a work. "Our flesh responds..." "upon believing...if we give our love..." This is the problem; we have no love for Christ until we are born again. We cannot give anything we do not have. Your defense of your position uses too many "ifs" and shows too much reliance on man not to be of works.

    [QUOTE This is not works for salvation. [/QUOTE]

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. npetreley

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    It's demons, not devils. Regardless, that statement should tell you something in addition to the point James is making. Either demons are completely exempt from salvation or salvation does not pivot on our "choice to believe". Because if the demons choose to believe and are not saved, then salvation does not come by faith.

    Personally, I would speculate that the former is the reason demons aren't saved. But your point seems to say it's the latter, otherwise I don't see why you quote this verse.

    If it is the latter, however, then that only leaves two choices for how we are saved. Either we are saved by works after we "choose to believe" (since choosing to believe obviously didn't do the trick), or we don't choose to believe at all but receive our faith as a gift as part of salvation by grace and election.

    I'll give you three guesses which is scriptural, and the first four don't count. ;)
     
  16. Yelsew

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    Frogman,
    The message is universal and ALL men hear it and All men know the responsibility to respond is theirs and theirs alone. But many, no, Most do not respond favorably to God because of the deceptiveness of the sin nature. Just as in the Garden, sin is subtle and continually undermines righteousness.

    Sin alters the perception of man, and of course, the constant in human nature is reluctance to change. We each find our own "comfort zone" and struggle to stay there, but "The Gospel message" requires change (repentence), dramatic change!, an about face if you will. Change is what Man must deal with and until belief overcomes doubt, man is not willing to make the changes with or without the nurturing of the Holy Spirit. So it comes to the exercise of free will where man must, in accordance with knowledge, make consious and unconsious decisions relative to his reception of God's will in his own life. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God!

    Those who refuse to listen to the Word of God, OR, those who are denied that privilege by virtue of their circumstances, may not hear at an early age, but at some point in their life they will be confronted by the Word and at that point must make a willful choice to accept or reject what they hear. Prison Ministries experiences this quite often, and of course they experience the opposite too!

    The point is the message is universal and the response is individual!
     
  17. npetreley

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    I agree. I often say I was saved when I was 33 years old, but I really don't know when it happened. Sometimes I'm tempted to say this or that experience, because it seemed like a major turning point, was when I got saved. Then I wonder if I was indwelled by the Holy Spirit when I was a little kid, because I also recall a turning point back then.

    I almost get the impression my church thinks a truly saved person would know the date when one got saved, but I don't agree.
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Every saved man can state where they were in life when they came to belief in Jesus. Perhaps not the calendar date or geographical place.

    But truly, many a man can unequivocably declare the date and place where they consciously gave up on themselves and turned away from the former self in submission to the Christ, the date they truly believed unto salvation. Mine was while I was hiding behind a baseball diamond backstop. I was running from the conviction of my sin nature. I was denying that a 'Good God' could allow his created beings to be sinners. I did not want to accept the truth so I ran from it. But the faster and further I ran the more the truth weighed until it finally crushed my spirit and I gave up in total defeat! Thank you Jesus! The day was Sunday, the month was April, the year was 1954, the weather was rainy until I gave up, then the sunshine broke through the clouds and shined on me just as the Son had broken through my clouds and shone on me. Did I instantly become the Pope? Not in the least, but I was washed clean that day and with a new spirit I became receptive to all the teachings of God's Holy Word. The scales fell from my eyes, and I could discern those spirits that were truly of the Kingdom of God from those 'clingers' who were only in the body of Christ and not part of the Bride of Christ.
     
  19. Brutus

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  20. Frogman

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    The Gospel message is universal, but only the elect will respond, because only this number will have the ability to do so through the Holy Spirit.

    If all men hear and understand, and all know their responsibility, why do not all respond positively to the message of free pardon? Because not all can, unless God enables them to do so.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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