John 3.32-33

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you say these scripture mean? Specifically:

    '...no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.'

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Following Jesus disco urse with Nicodemus
    John replied: `No one can have anything except what is given him from heaven. `You yourselves can bear me out. I said, `I am not the Christ; I am the one who has been sent to go in front of him.'

    `It is the bridegroom who has the bride; and yet the bridegroom's friend, who stands there and listens to him, is filled with joy at the bridegroom's voice. This is the joy I feel, and it is complete.

    He must grow greater, I must grow less. He who comes from above is above all others; he who is of the earth is earthly himself and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven (32) bears witness to the things he has seen and heard, but his testimony is not accepted by anybody; (33) though anyone who does accept his testimony is attesting that God is true, (34) since he whom God has sent speaks God's own words, for God gives him the Spirit without reserve. 35. The Father loves the Son and has entrusted everything to his hands. 36. Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: God's retribution hangs over him."

    In context verses 32 and 33 speak for themselves. The verse numbering breaks up the thought and makes is say something different than the author's intent. Then there are those who seem to think that verse numbering is an expression of the author's intent. Authors do not routinely number their text based works. Numbering was added, and that is why it is important to only use the numbering as a means of reference and not as a means of identifying complete thoughts.
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Yelsew, I wasn't trying to break up anything, I only identified the vss. (32-33) because that is the way they would be found if someone were to actually look.

    Thank you for looking. You made a fine effort, but either way you and I cut it the Bible still says that no man received his testimony, but they that did receive his testimony has set to his seal that God is true.

    Neither the scripture chapter, vs or our own divisions can change this.

    What is the testimony that no man received, but that those who did receive set to their seal that God is true?

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I don't think "the testamony" is what is important in the reference but rather the one who testifies. The one who came from heaven and delivered God's word was not received by those to whom he came, thus the testamony is not received. BUT, to those who did receive him, "the whosoevers", their reception of the messenger provided the evidence that the message is true. see verse 35 and 36 which say,
    This says to me that Calvin is wrong and that it truly is "whosoever believeth in Him".

    Scriptures identify the one speaking these words as the "forerunner for the Christ" The one who makes ready the way. So, now we have from two witnesses, John the Baptist and Jesus who tell us it is "whosoever believeth" that receives eternal life, and not "some elect" in accordance with the teachings of Calvin.
     
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    How is it possible that there can be "...though anyone who does accept...." if there is, "but his testimony is not accepted by anybody"? The Message is quite clear and adds emphasis to "He came to his own but his own received him not". The messenger then opened his testimony to "whosoever believeth". Yes, it is that simple!
     
  6. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

    who received his testimony..no MAN..ie carnal flesh

    Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

    again..no man..ie carnal flesh. but the new spirit that God the father gives.
    Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

    1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    try that...
    Me2
     
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    It Does Not Fit!

    You are not correctly reading John 3. John the baptist, so identified in John 3:25-27, is speaking to his disciples and a Jewish Rabbi about Jesus, into whom God's spirit resides without measure (limitless). He who comes from heaven 32. bears witness to the things he has seen and heard, but his testimony is not accepted by anybody; 33. though anyone who does accept his testimony is attesting that God is true, 34. since he whom God has sent speaks God's own words, for God gives him the Spirit without reserve. 35. The Father loves the Son and has entrusted everything to his hands. 36. Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: God's retribution hangs over him."

    Paul, on the other hand is speaking to believers in Jesus the Christ who have already received the Holy Spirit of God, and are therefore able to receive the things of God.
     
  8. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew,

    sorry,

    Jesus was hearing and seeing spiritual things from heaven.
    That is what He was testifying before men..

    No carnal man accepted the message.
    if any was to receive they would have to have a new spirit.

    Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

    question who is he?.
    the potential listener.
    the Holy spirit..
    or Jesus

    I stated that it was the potential listener....

    and later we read..

    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    are you saying Jesus was wasting his time and breath speaking to these people. since no man received the message. or did some receive the message within their new spirits?

    Me2
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the full context of the conversation with Nicodemus, what Me2 has said makes perfect sense:

    "If I have told ye heavenly things and ye believe not..."

    Amen Me2.


    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  10. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Jesus, who is God by virtue of the fact that God is his father, was in Heaven before he was incarnated into humanity. He inherently knew HIS Father, and KNEW about HIS Heavenly home. Is there anything that He did not know? If yes, then he was not God in the form of Man.

    No, I am not saying what you say I am saying.
    The Holy Scriptures do not state that those who did follow Jesus were first regenerated so they could. For example in Johns gospel we find this description:
    Those men who did hear and believe Jesus were not regenerated prior to believing. They believed because they had heard most of their lives that the Messiah would come and live among men. This teacher was saying things that made them think and desire to follow Jesus who was vastly different than the religious leaders of the day, and of course this new leader was believed to be the one to overthrow the oppressive Roman Government.

    If any man does receive what Jesus, who is filled without limit with the Spirit of God, that man is confirming the validity of what Jesus was telling us about God and Heaven. At least eleven men, the Apostles, did receive Jesus and were able to "HEAR" the words of God delivered through Jesus. Soon, Many more heard and believed, even at Pentacost after Jesus had ascended, many thousands came to Jesus at Peter's preaching. That could not have happened if NO MAN ACCEPTED. Many believed before the Holy Spirit descended upon man, for there were many more than the eleven who were followers of Jesus.

    Those that did not receive Jesus are the Jews, the Priests, and leaders of the Jews. They are the ones who could have opened up the Gospel to all of Israel, but because they refused to accept Jesus for who He is, Israel who was conditioned to follow the priests and religious government order, refused also to accept Jesus.

    However, when Jesus offered his message to the Gentiles, Many were saved by believing in Jesus. They were not constrained to follow their religious government leaders. Many received the Holy Spirit and the Gospel spread throughout Asia Minor and into Rome.

    Therefore, John's statement that NO MAN RECEIVED Jesus is not Correct unless you qualify those to whom the message was given but rejected. If NO man received Jesus, there would be no church today! Think about it! Who were John the baptist's "brood of Vipers"? That's right, the jews with their governing religious leaders. If they had accepted the Messiah in the form he came to them, the Gospel may well have not been given to the Gentiles and You would not be saved today.

    Put the whole story together Me2, Use some sound reasoning. Stop believing the lies that Man is not capable of hearing and believing. God made us so that we could if we would. Then he delivered his own son to us to give us the Good News of our redemption, that is, for those who believe, even on the name of Jesus. Prayer is the Key to heaven, but Faith unlocks the door.

    I acknowledge that you believe that man is "the potential listener" who can hear and can believe. But until you discard the falsehoods that we all hear and many believe there will remain a measure of confusion in what you say.
     
  11. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew,

    first I used the term "potential listener" carefully. Ill explain later.

    In the OT, God "touched" peoples lives in a outwardly fashion to the end they followed him because what they witness "externally". later they left because he wasnt what they imagined.

    As Jesus walked in his ministry. He states he did NOTHING that was outside the direct communication from his father of what to do and say

    Totally unlike our day to day lives today. He was specifically carrying out the Fathers will for Jesus Life. (Ministry) the Father arranged for people to cross paths with jesus. too show later believers a representation of the activities of the father and the son working together. healings,possessions,instruction..etc,etc

    first the strange setting of the age of the law and the new arrival of the age of Grace.

    things were going to soon change.
    how? in much confusion..
    we gentiles look into this at the moment of pentacost and the dispersal of Jesus spirit with the Holy Spirit to every new believer.

    was it possible to receive Jesus spirit into believers before his death?

    I doubt it, yet the likelyhood that the holy
    spirit was with each person that the father had chosen to be "newly potential believers" and that they were "marked" to receive the spirit upon dispersal.

    could the holy spirit have a relationship with them.. well, he did with many OT notables..with whatever level of wisdom and understanding necessary. Today we get Jesus spirit. with a full mindset of Knowledge (annointing) ..If We ask to receive what we need...

    so in this instance of scriptures mentioned..A believer in The "son of God"..Receives a new spirit. wether real, of by faith (delayed) and held by the holy spirit during this phase of transition between the OT and NT. (I dont Know). believeing in the "Son of God" and "Eternal Life" (quality wise) is for the "Church age". ie, "Life in the Spirit of Christ"..(ie, the Bride). and not necessarily the OT folks.

    maybe that is what the phrase "set to his seal" meant...????

    anyhow the posts previously are correct..I stand by their interpretations.

    so back to your replies..

    whatever you think man hears...its not with their ears..its with their carnal spirit. always.
    man talks to man.
    Gods spirit talks to Gods spirit.

    here jesus was talking to Gods spirit. anyone hearing what he was saying. is within two senerios. the holy spirit is communicating to their minds via carnal ideas. or they have received new spirits and the new spirit is responding.

    no carnal man is listening without the prompting or of God to do So...Period. Man doesnt care about God.

    no man CAN hear. No Man WANTS to HEAR.
    carnal competes with spiritual.
    they are at enmity against one another.


    now regeneration towards initial salvation is moot.

    God doesnt ask you to be saved, or to replace your old spirit. He violates your rights to answer that question. BooHooHoo.
    and then you regenerate your mind to what HAS happened.

    I would suggest studying this process in detail.
    from initial conception to baby to child to young man to father.
    the changes occur to every christian to some level or another. yet all still have the spirit wether they become reprobate against God. because the spirit that is within them is From God and the believer cant Give it Back.


    and thanks Frogman..amen to your amen ;) ...

    Me2
     
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Well Me2, based upon what you posted, I seriously doubt you understand how it works! Though I have attempted several times to clarify the processes for you, I have failed to state it in a manner that you can grasp. For that I am sorry.

    It would be beneficial to you to learn how the human mind without God works, so that you can understand how the human mind with God works. No, the Human mind is not totally depraved nor is it corrupt beyond redemption. To think so, is to say that God made junk in His own image meaning that God is junk!

    That simply is not true! God made us good, we did evil using the tools that God declared He made to be good. The tools are not corrupt, our spirits are not corrupt, but we seek to do evil inspite of the Goodness that God put into us, a matter of our own will!.

    You see, God made us good, that means the human capacity to do good in accordance with the way God made us still exists in us, the tools have not changed since God first made Adam. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for God to send His son to teach us and to subsequently send the Holy Spirit to continue in teaching all generations who are willing to hear. Humanity is constantly seeking relief from the condition it has fallen into. Humanity wants the promise of God to be fulfilled, but we still want to DO the things we do according to our own will. Belief in Jesus, even on his Name is the means of rescue from our condition. The Tools still exist and God uses those tools when we give Him our consent thru our belief in Him, in Jesus and yes, even by believing in the Holy Spirit. It is our belief that enables God to work in us.
     
  13. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew,

    sounds like your referencing religious humanism or the assention of the human mind as paralleling to having ones mind renewed in christ.

    the human mind will never comprehend the thoughts of God without having a new spirit within us from Him and its full content of the mind of christ.

    1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
    1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    as you reference as to keeping our old spirit. it contains a nature that is against God. in referencing to the natural man or original man "Adam". He lives in a world that only he can disern.
    yet christ and the new spirit or nature brings with him the ability to disern the spiritual things that only the spirit of God can and not the natural mans spirit.

    natural man thinks he can overhear the knowledge of God and repeat or copy the intelligence. which on the surface seems possible and can even fool some. yet the knowledge is coupled with the attributes of Christ spirit which is love and forgiveness and mercy.

    the human mind cannot comprehend these things nor reproduce them. if any human being would attempt to think otherwise the very action of forgiving and offering mercy would lead the human being to diress and confusion. seeing that the nature of the natural mans spirit is selfishness and covetousness. Christ calls this nature and its efforts...antichrist.

    heres a question for you.

    when you were "saved". you believed that Jesus christ was crusified and died and became the propitiator for sin. did you discover that you were a sinner by breaking one law of God and the penalty for that action was death. were you told to be saved and for Jesus christ to become your propitiator that you would have to die spiritually and be judged.
    if you havent died spiritually. then you havent been judged. and havent had the opportunity to accept Jesus as your substitute yet.
    if you have died spiritually meaning your old spirit is in death and will never rise because it is Guilty and cannot be saved. Only by accepting a substitute that God the father has resurrected from the dead..Which by the way is the only one that will be resurrected. can you live unto God BY FAITH today while you are physically alive. yet that faith is not your own mental assention of agreement of the existence of your own faith of your old spirit. (it dead and buried..right?)

    you live by the very faith of the new spirit that is within you...WHO IS JESUS.

    your old spirit has been replaced with a righteous eternal Spirit. one in which has its own faith.

    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    by the way..that correctly interpreted..IN YOUR FLESH


    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    again the reference to a NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU..

    oh and did you catch the existence of another spirit. that of the world..the spirit of the old man, the flesh, the carnal man, the antichrist.

    you have a new spirit now as well as new faith now as well as a new mind to learn from now. or agree with now.
    if you believe your old spirit is dead and buried and has been replaced with Gods new spirit he has for you. the spirit of his Son Jesus Christ.

    1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction (annointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    you might think you can mentally assent with your old human mind yet, by the Faith of God..he says your new spirit Knows all things..


    somethings to think about....
    Me2
     
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I do not accept your accusation. It is by hearing the word and believing the word that we have our minds renewed. We cannot have our minds renewed if we do not believe what we Hear.

    The Human spirit is not removed from the human and replaced by a divine spirit. Once the Human spirit is removed from the flesh, the flesh dies! It is that simple. The spirit we receive when we are conceived is the only spirit we have, it is all we have that we can give to Jesus. It is our spirit that makes us who we are. It is our spirit that Jesus came to seek and to save! Our flesh has nothing to offer. Therefore there is no reason for God to give us a new spirit when what he actually does is renew our human spirit, conforming it to the image of His only begotten Son. It is God's spirit working in us performing the conforming work on our spirit. We are spirit beings! Our flesh has nothing to offer.

    Each of us has been given, as an inherent part of our humanity, the attributes of Love, forgiveness, and mercy and grace as well as many other attributes. But we cannot use them effectively until we are conformed to the image of Jesus the Christ. EVERY HUMAN has such attributes, you see them using them in their own environment. It is only when one submits in belief of the Word of God to God that one employs those attributes in a Godly manner. "Even the evil give their children bread to eat and not stones" is the concept under which we employ our God given attributes.

    If the Human mind cannot comprehend these things nor reproduce them, then how is it that "even the evil give their children bread....? It is quite clear that the human mind which is part of the image of God in which we are made is fully functional and is able to comprehend, else the Word of God would be of no value whatever! We know from the scriptures that "God sends forth his word and it returneth not void". It is belief on our part that enables God's Holy Spirit to work on us, providing the "washing of regeneration" to those who do believe the Word.

    NO! I am saved because I believe in Jesus! I did not understand Jesus' atonement for my sins until many years after I believed in Jesus as my savior. All I really understood is that by believing in Jesus I have eternal life and that Jesus' death had something to do with it, but more importantly His Resurrection had even more to do with my salvation for He proved that He is truly God and has power over death. It was not for many years that I understood that Jesus' atonement exonerated me from the penalty of sin thereby keeping sin from being charged against me at the judgment throne of God. I did not even understand John 3:18 for many years, and that by believing in Jesus I would not even face judgment by God because I am marked by my belief in His Son as being the property of Jesus. Yes my works will be judged, and the wood, hay, and stubble that I may offer up will be burned away in the manner that such substances are consumed by fire. But I also have credited to me some souls who have come to belief in Jesus by my testimony of Him. These are pure Gold and will come through the fire in the manner that Gold comes through fire.

    I live by the Faith of my Renewed, Regenerated human spirit with which I was born, but which has been renewed by my belief in Jesus through the work of the Holy Spirit.

    You are quite simply wrong! My spirit has not been replace, but it has been REGENERATED, RENEWED by my faith in Jesus the Christ. You cannot have your old spirit removed from your flesh and have the flesh continue to live. There is no time in my life when my flesh died even for a nano-second Scriptures tell us that the spirit is the life of the flesh. Therefore if the life of the flesh is removed the flesh dies, and God does not put his spirit into dead flesh!

    No, the meaning is that your spirit is regenerated and the Holy spirit abides with your regenerated spirit because it has been renewed by your faith in God, Jesus. The spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is come in the flesh is an unregenerated spirit. The spirit that does confess that Jesus came in the flesh is Regenerated and conforms to Jesus. It is the same spirit one is born with, but it is "reborn", the only part of man that can be reborn.

    The spirit of man is subject to evil and good spirits and there are many of both. There is only one Holy Spirit. It is the belief of the Human spirit that determines which spirit the it follows, evil or good. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate the human spirit so that when the human spirit hears the Word of God and believes it that the human spirit is regenerated, reshaped into the conformance of Jesus.

    I do not have a new spirit, I have a renewed spirit, one washed by the Blood of the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world...even mine. The spirit I was born with was not removed from my flesh, but it is regenerated to conform to that of Jesus, my Savior. I heard God's word, I believe in Jesus, therefore I am a new man in Christ! My old inclinations are dead, the sins I used to do, I have repented from doing, the sins I do, I confess, and receive forgiveness and I work to repent from doing them again. ALL with the Spirit with which I was born but which has been regenerated through My faith in Jesus.

    My spirit, the same spirit with which I was brought into life, is reborn, regenerated, renewed in Christ, and now it is capable of and does accept the Holy Word of God and it does know the things of God and it understands what the scriptures say.

    What evidence do you present that you have in you the Spirit of God and no other? Do you sin? According to scripture, if you say you do not sin, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. You cannot have the Spirit of God, for God cannot sin! So the truth is you have retained the spirit with which you were brought into life, because you are still subject to sinning.

    Your life spirit has been renewed by your belief in God, and you are now able to receive the things of God.



    More things to think about...
    David and Paul knew, Now you too know!
    Yelsew
     

Share This Page

Loading...