Featured John 5:25-29??

Maybe since its not a word?

the fact is anything spiritual should be unable to be understood or responded to. You won't admit this as if there is even one thing spiritually that can be understood it destroys the entire premise. You say the Holy Spirit is needed to understand spiritual things...yet the rich man in hell understood spiritual things. Would you say he was indwelt with the Spirit, and if not, how was he able to discern everything concerning Lazarus and in speaking with Abraham? Why did God regenerate him in hell to understand salvific truths?

 

I posted from NASB becaused I thought wou would complain about the use of "quickened" in the KJV! Winman, Winman, Winman, why would I post Scripture I do not believe?

Winman, you are becoming irrational in an effort to establish your point. Furthermore, Winman, you are lying when you say I don't believe Scripture that I posted. I will post that Scripture one more time [Post 65]:

The above statement is totally false, Winman, and you know it. That makes it a deliberate lie, not Christ like at all, Winman. Incidently I am not a Calvinist. Calvin believed and taught doctrine that I reject. His view of Salvation is Biblical.

Stop a minute, Winman, think, and be honest. Why do you think I would post Ephesians 2:5 to defend my view of salvation if I did not believe it?

Now I am also going to repost the Scripture from Ephesians 1 [From Post 65[ for your edification.

 

I am KJB only, I do not have a problem understanding what "quickened" means.

You say you believe this scripture, but you do not. You do not believe we are quickened or made alive together with Christ, you believe you are quickened or made alive before faith in Christ. And until you believe, you are still dead in all your trespasses and sins.

There is nothing irrational whatsoever with what I have said. Almost all Calvinists believe regeneration precedes faith. This is impossible, one must hear the gospel before they can believe it, which takes real time. They must then understand the gospel which also takes real time. Only after hearing and understanding the gospel can any person believe it. You claim a person is regenerated and alive BEFORE they hear and understand, but this is impossible, you cannot be alive until you believe. So when a person hears and understands they are not yet alive.

If it takes just one minute to hear the gospel and understand it, you are still in your trespasses and sins until you believe it. But you claim a person is alive before faith. You claim it is this life which enables them to hear and understand the gospel before they believe. This is false and illogical.

No one is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus, so you believe a person is made alive without Christ, before they place faith in him.

I don't know why I have to keep explaining this, a child could understand. I think you understand clearly what I am saying.

In Calvinsim you are not made alive by believing in Christ, you are made alive by being regenerated by the Father before faith in Christ. You have completely cut Jesus Christ out of the picture. This is utterly false doctrine whether you will admit it or not. It is not the true gospel.

I don't know or care what Calvin believed, but I do know what modern Calvinists believe, and they believe a person must be regenerated before they have the ability to believe. Thus they believe a person is made spiritually alive without Christ before they have believed on him. This is false doctrine.

Oh, I think you believe what you THINK it says, but it does not say what you believe. It does not say you are regenerated before faith, it shows you are regenerated WITH CHRIST that can only occur at the moment you believe. You simply have believed a proof text Calvinists commonly use without really examining what the verse really says.

Do whatever you like, no Calvinist who believes that regeneration precedes faith believes they are made alive WITH Christ, they believe they are made alive WITHOUT Christ before they can even believe.

 

Winman,

It is beyond asinine of you to try to argue that those who believe the Doctrine of Grace, that Salvation is all of the Triune God, believe they are made alive without Jesus Christ! As my Sainted Mother would say: "You are showing your behind in public." Metaphorically speaking!

Can you provide one passage of Scripture showing that faith or belief must precede the New Birth [i.e., Regeneration]?

 

Sure,

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse says you have to believe to have life. Calvinism says you must have life to believe.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Both of these verses says that whosoever believes shall not perish, but have life. Life follows believing.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse not only says you must believe to have life, it says if you do not believe you shall not see life. But you teach a man has life before he is even able to believe.

Jhn 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This verse says whoever believes has life. It also says whoever believes has passed from death to life, but you claim a person has passed from death to life before they believe.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one is "in Christ" or "with Christ" until after they believe.

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1 Jhn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

You don't have life until you have Jesus. You cannot be alive before you believe on Jesus. But you teach a man is made alive before he believes on Jesus, you teach a man must be made alive to be able to believe in Jesus. You teach that life precedes faith. You teach a man has life without Jesus.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse says that to those who received Jesus and believed on his name, to them God gave the power to become a son of God, the power to be born again. Verse 13 is simply explaining verse 12 where it says God gave them the power to become a son of God. Being made a son of God is being born again.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This verse says whosoever believes is not condemned. But it also says whosoever has not believed is condemned already.

Until you actually believe you cannot have life, you are condemned. Yet you teach a person has life before they have believed.

I could go on, there are many more scriptures. All scripture shows that a person must believe to have life. Scripture shows a person must receive and believe on Jesus before God gives them the power to be born again and they become a son of God. The scriptures show that until you believe you are condemned.

Your false doctrine claims a person has life without Jesus before they believe. This is not the true gospel.

 

Winman,

You have not provided one passage of Scripture showing that faith or belief must precede the New Birth [i.e., Regeneration]?

Consider what Jesus Christ tells us about the new birth:

John 3:3-8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Consider what Jesus Christ tells us in this passage about the New Birth:

First, He says nothing about Faith being a prerequisite for the New Birth..

Second, He says that we do not understand the source or cause of the "New Birth".

Winman did you know when you first believed?

 

He absolutely did: most of those verses are so abundantly clear.....one has to literally blind themselves not to see it: especially the verses in John. They are simple and straightforward John 20:31 "believing..you might have life" the condition: belief-the result: life....

John 3:15 whosoever believeth ...(the condition)....shall have eternal life...(the result) The status of "having life" is essentially the same as being "regenerated" these are simple conditional statements....in order to "have life" or "be regenerated" one must "believe"

In fact he does......It was awfully convenient for you to abandon the Scriptures at vs. 8 wherein Jesus had-as of yet- not in fact told Nicodemus what he needs to know to be saved.....but not to worry: Jesus does not stop at verse 8. I am frankly glad he does not; for if you were the master: we would be without hope, in that you would not have answered poor Nick's question. read on:
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

Christ initially interjects belief here......: :thumbs:


Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.


Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Which after this-----brings us conveniently...to the verse that Win already cited: which immediately follows:

TA DAAAA!!!!! :wavey: :jesus: And one doesn't even have to listen to some Reformed blowhard explain away the obvious for 2 hrs. to understand the passage...A simple man can take the passage and realize: "hmm oh Golly" "If I believe then I can be born again...(however that works)...and being born again apparently means...I will have eternal life...sounds like a deal, I think I'll take it" That is Scripture----and it is the Scriptures You mishandled put into context! And they prove precisely the opposite of what you want them to.

Wrong again....actually....the source or cause is the Spirit....You quoted that yourself....how the Spirit functions is a mystery: which is what Christ is conveying when he says the "wind bloweth where it listeth" et. al. But the source....is the Spirit......

Note how this is yet one more passage wherein the Scriptures...here Christ himself: labors to yet again impress upon us the clear and distinct difference between Spiritual Death and Physical Death... and by extension- in this passage specifically: Spiritual Life vs. Physical Life or Spiritual Birth/re-birth and Physical Birth

You know: you would not have to hold these untenably ridiculous positions if you simply let go of the unnecessary equivocation of acting as if Spiritual Death and Physical Death were precisely the same in all details....they aren't. If they were: Adam and Eve would have physically died the same day they spiritually died at the fall.

 

No... so what?.....are we therefore to conclude that no one ever resists God's call in any application? doesn't follow yet....you need a consequent premise. this is an incomplete syllogism.

 

The problem with "freewillers" is that they confuse Regeneration with the whole of Salvation. Regeneration or the "New Birth", the work of the Holy Spirit, is the initial event in Salvation. In Regeneration the person is given the gift of faith through which he/she will respond to the Gospel. Then follows, among others, Conversion, Justification, positional Sanctification, Perseverance, and in God's own time Glorification!

 

Based on the above, someone is confused allright...and its not "freewillers". I'll continue to believe life is in Christ, you can keep your life outside of Christ beliefs.

 

You are as delusional as Winman. I don't know of anyone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace who believe in life outside of Jesus Christ.

I realize that some "freewillers" believe that they are 99.9% alive outside of Jesus Christ and that by His death He provides that extra 0.1% they need. Instead of singing Jesus and Me they sing MEMEMEMEME and Jesus!

 

O.K. one at a time:

No, they don't...but they understand that Regeneration shares a perfect positive correlation with Salvation.

O.K. This is where we would like for you to supply Scriptures which suggest that "regeneration" as opposed to: say-repentance or Faith are conditionals for Salvation. That is, inasmuch as you have been humored endlessly in Winman's willingness to supply Scriptures which demonstrate that "Faith" or "belief" is an initial conditional for salvation.

Please provide any Scriptural evidence that suggests that "Regeneration" is a condition for acceptance by faith...

Again...any Scriptural evidence that "regeneration" is some form of condition for "conversion" would be welcome.

Cute...but unnecessary bloviation, this is not up for dispute, and I (a non-cal for one) agree completely. So what?...were you trying to lengthen your response or simply demonstrate that you were familiar with a couple of two-dollar theological terms?

Why don't you engage those charming passages in John 3 about Nicodemus which you were so good to bring into the conversation???

 

Old Regular has taken you to school and you do not even know it:wavey: You still do not know why he introduced Jn 3...because you have a basic misunderstanding of the passage....in your haste to offer smart aleck responses....you did not take time to consider his point...go back and see if you can grasp what he was telling you.....that regeneration is the work of God and like the wind...you CANNOT TELL...where it comes from or when...{even though you think you can assign conditions and a formula for it...speak about bloviating} Theological terms express more than you give them credit for. It is your poor attitude that keeps you from grasping truth...God resists the proud. Your response to OLD Regular is out of line. He has to much class to tell you that you sound like a punk, when you say this:

Your false idea expressed here is a works based salvation ,no matter how you might protest and try and say otherwise....

You have man providing something...faith or belief....on his own....that obligates God to pay a debt owed,rather than salvation being all of grace....

If man had this ability in Him.....it would not be given as a grace gift.

regeneration includes the whole package...with Jesus being the Author and finisher of our faith......not sinful man being the author or finisher

Thats where it is.....you are putting forth man meeting conditions
the bible puts forth ONE MAN ....who meets the conditions by His perfect work,and active obedience:thumbs::wavey:

 

Oh, no, why don't you explain and interract with those passages sir...do tell us...I have read this entire thread numerous times... I have already requested that Old Regular respond to the passage he brought up...so why don't you? Don't just say..."You don't get it" why not interract with the passage and explain yourself?...I responded to OR with the Scriptures....the very Scriptures he was producing...and I have asked him to respond in kind...and interract with the very Scriptures, and very contentions he was making with them...You do not get out of this that easily....by the way I agree completely with:

That is not the onus of the conversation..

I believe that the word of God is the word of God: I did not write those Scriptures, nor did I assign those conditions...nonetheless those are conditional statements....I did not assign them...God did..respond to them

I appreciate their value...FAR more than you obviously...in your quick rush to judgement.... think that I do...those were theological terms not up for dispute...I called him on it...why not allow HIM to explain how they are germaine to the discussion? Because he can't...they are not germaine...they are ancillary to the conversation...I appreciate your attempt at covering for him...but I don't fall for it. He must address their signifigance.

....but giveth grace to the humble....I have read the passage...I struggle with pride...I always have: hence my life-verse (so-to-speak)
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

I am not the only one on this board though....I promise you.

No, it isn't class....it is the inability to respond intelligently, otherwise, you would not be so quick to cover for him.

I "sound like a punk?????" o.k. maybe I do...but I am also correct...why don't you engage the passages of Scripture?...you simply sound like a know-it-all-judgemental blow-hard....with zero original thoughts... possessing only the sheer ability to parrot what he has been ingesting in his regular brainwashing sessions and his "catechisms" for decades....so what? interract with the content of the Scriptures please....

Only Calvinism falsely defines faith as a work....I would challenge you...sir...rather than say "you are a punk" to demonstrate from the Scriptures that faith is a work

No one believes that God is "obligated" to do anything....God could have randomly consigned everyone to hell if he so chose...or didn't your Calvinist masters teach you that non-Calvinists understand this as well as you do? you sound like a punk jit, when you speak like this. Moreover, non-Cals also understand (at least quite often) that Faith is in many ways a gift of God's Grace, and that no man has the innate ability (due to his sinful depravity) to demonstrate faith except for the super-natural actions of God upon a sinner...Do you have any CLUE what non-Calvinists believe???? Here's a hint: If your understanding of what they believe comes from the ceaseless bloviations of the Reformed preachers you listen too...then you have no idea what non-Cals believe...I would suggest you read their own writings: even say the writings of Jacobus Arminius to understand where non-Cals are coming from...this way, you will not have to perpetually tilt at windmills.

I would suggest that this very passage unequivovally demonstrates that faith is not in fact in any sense a work...but whatever..

True...hence the doctrine of "prevenient grace" look it up some time...non-Cals are very aware of this fact...or were you unaware of the fact that they are very aware of it as well?

again...agreed...so what???? Please quote someone on this thread suggesting that man is the "author" or "finisher" of faith....if you cannot...then you were merely sounding like a punk when you say this.

The Bible puts forth the idea that a man meets a condition: This condition is not properly defined as a work, and that condition is only met after the Sovereign Grace of an Almighty God enables him to respond as God has required....but it is a condition...

The key to this rhetorical trick that you just employed, and fallaciously believe you can slip past me, is that you used the words "the conditions" believing we were not sharp enough to catch on to it.... the "conditions" Christ met, were the "conditions" necessary to secure the Salvation of the elect: the discussion, however, is the "conditions" necessary for a sinner (not Christ by definition) to receive the free gift of Salvation. This particular play on the word "condition" has been called: Bluff again....

 

Well, you did state regeneration (new life) leads to faith in Christ, right? Enough said. Life outside of Christ.