John 6:37 and Irresistible Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin, Nov 10, 2006.

  1. Martin

    Martin
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    In recent days there have been discussions about the drawing work of God. What I desire to do in this post is to maybe help bring to light some aspects of this issue that need further discussion.

    My focus here will be on John 6, mainly verses 37, 44, and 60-65. I also want to look at John 12:32 since it is often used to deny irresistible grace (as it is often called). Let me also say that my desire is that we take our eyes off ourselves and put our eyes on Jesus. What did He say?

    Up front I want to make a statement. You ready? Jesus only gives eternal life to those the Father has given Him. Did that statement shock you? Do you find yourself in disagreement with it? Ok.

    Jesus Himself made the above point in John 17 when He said, "You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life" (Jn 17:2). There it is. Jesus gives eternal life to those the Father has given Him (see Jn 17:6). Now the objection maybe raised that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe (Jn 3:16 etc). This is true. I would propose that Jesus teaches that those the Father gives Him will believe in Him and receive eternal life. Notice what Jesus said in John 6:37:



    All of those the Father has given Jesus out of the world (Jn 17:6) will come to Jesus and Jesus will give them eternal life. In other words all who the Father has given to the Son will believe and receive eternal life.

    Please notice that Jesus said that those the Father has given Him "will" come to Him. Not "might", "maybe", "should", or "hope they will", rather they "will" come to Him. What does this mean?

    It simply means that before you come to Christ and are saved you must be given to the Son by the Father. Jesus Himself taught that you cannot come to Him apart from this action by the Father. Notice what He said in John 6:44...

    "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (NASB)

    So unless the Father gives you to Jesus and draws you to Jesus, you cannot/will not come to Jesus. Jesus repeats this teaching again in John 6:60-65...

    "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" -John 6:65 referring to vs44.

    Before you are saved you are given to the Son by the Father. After that you "will" come to the Son and receive eternal life.

    This is the point where someone will usually bring up John 12:32. Therefore I want to take a look at that verse.

    "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (NASB)

    Those who use this verse against the doctrine of Irresistible Grace often don't realize that, if the verse means what they say it means, the verse goes way beyond what they want it to say. If John 6:44 and John 12:32 are referring to the same drawing then all men will be saved (ie...universalism). Again notice what Jesus says in John 6:44

    "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day"

    What will Jesus do for those the Father draws to Him? Raise them up on the last day (ie...salvation). Please note that this is the same promise given in 6:37-39...

    "All that the Father give Me will come to Me...that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" -Jn 6:37a,39b

    So those who wish John 12:32 to be referring to the same type of "drawing" that is mentioned in John 6 must also affirm the doctrine of universal salvation. However that is rarely done. This problem is usually avoided or glossed over with fancy preaching that gets allot of "amens" from the listeners.

    So if I am asserting, and I am, that John 12:32 is not referring to the same type of "drawing" that is being referred to in John 6:44 (etc), then what is He referring to?

    I believe we can put this passage with verses like Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 7:9. Through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ the Gospel offer is made to the entire world (Lk 24:47). All men are invited to come to Christ. Indeed whosoever will believe in Jesus will have eternal life (Jn 3:16). But who will respond to that offer? That is the question that must now be asked.

    The Bible clearly denies that anyone can respond on their own at their own time (see Rom 3:9-12, Jn 6:44). So who will respond? Those the Father has given to Jesus will respond (see John 10:26-27). In other words the Gospel is preached to the entire world and through that message God brings to Himself all of the elect.

    Indeed all men are drawn to Christ through the general offer of the Gospel, however only those the Father has given to the Son will be drawn to Christ in a saving way (ie...granted to come to Christ). All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus.
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Scripture

    Who has the Father given to Jesus?

    The answer is simple believers.

    Who are the messenger of the Father and how are people drawn by the Father.

    We are the messnger of the Father for we have the words of the Father that was given to us by Jesus.

    Unless we go out with the words of the Father, no one will be drawn to Jesus by the Father.

    We are the hands and feet of Jesus as if God the Father is making His plea through us.

    God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    When we lift Jesus up, not our doctrine God the Father through us will drawn all men to Himself.

    To give them the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.

    It is not irresistible we can walk away just like the young rich ruler who was drawn to Jesus, but walked away
     
  3. reformedbeliever

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    Absolutely wrong. Even demons simply believe.

    Not all men inclusively. All men as in all types of. The same word used in this verse is used later in Timothy as in "the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

    The ruler just wanted to add Jesus to his colllection. He did not have faith. You see..... more than simple belief is needed. You have to have faith. You must be born again. Those who are born again are born, not of blood, nor of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God!
     
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Belief

    Belief is the beginning of our faith and yes our faith will produce work.

    I know men rather thier doctrine to lifted up, but I desire Christ Jesus to be lifted up.

    God the Father draws men through His words spoken through Jesus. We are messengers of that

    You can follow the crowd by following doctrine of men, you were not drawn by the Father you are just following the crowd.

    Your hope is Jesus.
     
    #4 psalms109:31, Nov 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2006
  5. reformedbeliever

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    Again. Simple belief is not faith. Faith produces true belief. Faith is a gift. Who is the author and finisher of our faith? Wouldn't you say that being born again is necessary? Jesus did. We are born, not of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God.

    What do you think my doctrine is not biblical? We have posted verses of scripture and even exegeted them. Where are yours? You do not think we lift up Jesus? Give me a break! :BangHead: So sick of this. Back up your emotionalism with scripture, or lift your doctrine up without it.

    You are implying I'm lost. I resent that! Repent of this! My hope is Jesus. GET REAL. Again, back up your humanism with scripture or get out of the debate. Learn God centered theology instead of man centeredness.
     
  6. Martin

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    ==If you are saying that believers are given to the Son by the Father then you are clearly wrong. Scripture teaches that we are given to the Son by the Father and then we come to Christ and become believers (order of John 6:37, 17:2, 3:16, etc).


    ==Wrong. Jesus said those the Father gives Him "will" come to Him. God will use preachers, missionaries, evangelists, tracks, Bible reading, and a number of any other means to reach His sheep with the Gospel message. His sheep will hear His voice and follow Him, they will come to Christ (Jn 6:37, 10:27). God has chosen to work through men, but He does not "need" our service (Acts 17:25). If we will not preach the Gospel, God will find someone else who will. Those He has given to the Son "will" come to the Son.

    Salvation is of the Lord.


    ==You just ignored everything I pointed out. Consider...

    If the rich young ruler was drawn to Jesus, in the way you claim he was, then he is saved and will be raised up on the last day. Why? Because that is what Jesus said.

    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day...No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" -Jn 6:37a,39b,44

    The rich young ruler "was not" drawn to the Son in a saving way. How do I know? Because he was not given eternal life (Jn 17:2). Like the men in John 6:60-66, the rich young ruler was interested in Christ but was not willing to come to Christ. That is why Jesus makes the statement in John 6:65, "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father". What will Jesus do to those who are granted by the Father to come to Him? He will not drive them away (6:37), He will not lose them (6:39), and He will raise them up on the last day (6:39,40,44). So unless you are willing to convert to universal salvation, or unless you are willing to say that contrary to Scripture's witness the rich young ruler was saved, you cannot claim that the rich young ruler was drawn to Christ in a saving way (like described in John 6:37,44).

    To your point..."It (grace) is not irresistible we can walk away"

    What do you do with John 6:37 where Jesus says those the Father gives Him "will" come to Him? Those who are elect clearly will not resist but will come to Christ.
     
    #6 Martin, Nov 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2006
  7. reformedbeliever

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    Oh Psalm will say you have to believe first. He will ignore all I posted too. He is afraid the doctrine he has been force fed all his life may be wrong. He refuses to see what John said in John 1:13. They were believers John 1:12 who were born..... not of the will of man but God. John 1:13
     
  8. psalms109:31

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    Truth

    I desire to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

    God has convinced me of in my youth that He loved this world that He sent His Son.

    Your center is Jesus not some man-made 5 points given to you by men.

    Our faith is given to us by God through His word, but it is still your choice to believe in it or not.

    I sure didn't come up with what I believe from my own, but it comes from the word of God.

    Just because it doesn't agree with your doctrine does not make it wrong.

    God loves the world and it your own desire to minimize.

    God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    If you do not believe God then we lost a messenger.

    Believers will be saved and non believers will be condemned.

    God has placed life and death before us and made us the messenger.

    So we are to chose Jesus and live.
     
  9. reformedbeliever

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    Respectfully sir or madam, please try to make sense. Try to proof read.
     
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Saved believers

    Jesus tells us that believers will be saved. Not shall be not maybe but shall be saved

    That tells us who that Father has given to Jesus, believers.

    They will come to Jesus and be saved.

    God has rejected His own not because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief.

    The young rich ruler was drawn and even chosen by Jesus, but he walked away.
     
  11. psalms109:31

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    Hinder you

    Men want to put all these stumbling blocks in front of you.

    All of you can come to Jesus.

    God has put away all these rules and regulation these men place before you and set them aside, and has given you a better hope in which we draw near to God through Jesus.
     
  12. Martin

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    ==I came to believe in the, so-called, doctrines of grace through personal Bible study. It was a long road but I am convinced by Scripture that the doctrines of grace, as commonly understood, are generally correct. I desire to know Christ and Him crucified as well. I am sure we both have that as our goal. But I also want to know what my Lord teaches about these issues. I can't go in a direction different from His Word. As another guy named Martin, Martin Luther, said so well at the Diet of Worms in April of 1521...

    "my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I cannot do other wise."

    ==Then why are you not willing to deal with the points I raised from Scripture? I would really like to see you interact with the Biblical texts that I have pointed out (etc). Can you, will you, do that? If not please tell me so I don't continue to respond to your posts.
     
  13. reformedbeliever

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    That is the problem Martin. They refuse to address these scriptures you posted, and many more. I understand. I used to be a free willer. I still believe man makes choices and as much as they can be free, they are. But to ignore so much scripture that God has given us for a reason...... I could not continue to do so. Martin Luther, Calvin, and many more great theologians before and after them, worked hard at study of scripture and appologetics. They wrote many great books. Yet so many people who could not hold a candle to them, run them down. They think their theology is man made. I wish they would honestly address the scriptures and come to biblical conclusions. Paul did tell Timothy to work hard at study. I believe it is for us too. I think we have to address the hard scriptures... as God has given them to us for a reason. Psalm seems to not want to address them, and is stuck on the simple Gospel. He fails to realize that the rest was given for a reason. Grace and peace.
     
  14. psalms109:31

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    Drawn to Jesus

    We are drawn to Jesus by His word, that comes from the Father.

    Being drawn does not mean we will come.

    When we are drawn to Jesus we are given a choice to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condened.

    We are drawn to Jesus by a choice that those who believe will come to Jesus and be saved.

    Not all drawn to Jesus will be saved, but those who come to Him.

    He will raise those who come to Jesus in the last days.

    If we do not go out with the word no one will be drawn to Jesus.

    The people that left was not drawn to Jesus by the Father they were just following the crowd
     
  15. reformedbeliever

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    Blammo..... brother, I was wondering when you were going to respond. :tongue3:

    Oops.... I posted that before you were through replying...lol
     
    #15 reformedbeliever, Nov 10, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2006
  16. Martin

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    ==Of course John 6:37-39,44 (etc) bring your statement into serious doubt. Are you going to directly deal with those verses? Yes or no?

    ==Yet Jesus said that those the Father has given Him "WILL" come to Him. There is no doubt there.


    ==Yet Jesus said that, "unless the Father who sent Me draws Him and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44). Jesus said that those drawn to Him, in a saving way, will be raised up by Him on the last day (ie...they are given eternal life- Jn 17:2, 6:37-40).


    ==Who are those who come to Him? Those the Father has given to Him, those who Father draws to Him, and those the Father has granted may come to Jesus. Nobody comes to Jesus without "first" being given to Jesus by the Father. Do you deny this?


    ==As was the rich young ruler (yet you said he was drawn). Neither were drawn to Jesus in a saving way and therefore neither came to Jesus.
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    I'm really not loosing it......... I don't think. :laugh: I was viewing whos online... and it said he was replying to this thread. Oh well......I look forward to his reply. Very good thread Martin!
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    Calling to Go out

    That is a calling to us to go out.

    If we do not go out with the Fathers word to draw men to Jesus no one will be saved.

    We are the hands and the feet of the Father.

    Men see this as a closed door, but it is an open door to go reach out.
     
  19. reformedbeliever

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    A non answer to Martins question? I suppose that is a no, you will not addresss the scriptures?
     
  20. GordonSlocum

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    Enjoyed reading your post.


    (1) I agree with everything you have laid out (except - which I will explain below). I personally believe it 100 percent.

    (2) Where we differ is "if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me" It is a universal offer but it can not be universal salvation. That is impossible. Now before you jump for joy the dividing line gets back to "foreknowledge" and that is where the two shall not meet although they try.

    In short all that the father gives to Jesus will believe. I see this election on the basis of foreknowledge. God knew who would believe and these He gave to Jesus because Jesus always does the will of the Father, came to earth, lived, and died for the elect and the elect are those that freely believed of which the father foresaw and on that basis gives them to Jesus because Jesus always obeys the Father.
     
    #20 GordonSlocum, Nov 10, 2006
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