John 6:37

Again - Christ appeals to SEEING and then BELIEVING. SEEING Christ and the signs He performed called the people to CHOOSE whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are
not believing" - THESE methods are not Christs - but Satan's. Christ showed that HE was SHOWING them the bread of life - JUST as He showed to the disciples
but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to BELIEVE. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

The same model again - "You have SEEN ME - so BELIEVE" for the model is "EVERYONE who BEHOLDS the SON and BELIEVES.. will have eternal life" -
NO EMPHASIS is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I PITH WILL BE FORCED to BELIEVE". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God. But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).
In fact (by contrast to Calvinism) in John 12 Christ will make it clear "I will DRAW ALL MEN" unto myself. The enticement - the drawing - the supernatural power moving like the gentle breeze of John 3 - is not FORCING the FEW and IGNORING the many - but is DRAWING ALL - gently and without being seen just as John 3 tells us.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" Rev 3 (John again). Not "Behold a burst through the door and slam dunk your mind causing you to choose Me". The "dragging all men to Me" part that Calvinism so desires to see in scripture - is not there.


45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Again He does not argue "They shall ALL be pithed of God" rather - they shall ALL be TAUGHT. And the emphasis again is on the one who has heard and learned
- gentle peaceable means - not force.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Southern writes;
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1.)Who are the ones given to Jesus by the Father?
(The elect)

2.)Does the giving precede the coming to the Son (in faith)?
(yes)

I would like to see different perspectives on this.

 

1.)Who are the ones given to Jesus by the Father?

9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep* through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them *in the world, I kept them in *Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

While here in the flesh Christ was given a certain number of Jews to train and equip to take the message to the world. These are the ones the Father gave to the Son, the rest were hardened (John 12:39)

2.)Does the giving precede the coming to the Son (in faith)?

Yes. Just as God chose Jonah to go to Ninevah before he took the message to Ninevah, the apostles were chosen to learn from Christ before they took the message to the world.

 

Here is one of my favorite perspectives on this...

The Sum and Substance of All Theology

Key quotes:

 

Were we "given to Jesus" in the same way those who walked and learned from him directly while he was in the flesh were "given to him."

Has anyone of you even considered the possiblity that when he speaks of some being "given by the Father to the Son" that he is talking about his present state of being as the Incarnate Word who had been given a very specific and limited mission while here on earth?

He was hiding the gospel in parables (Matt.13) and he was telling his followers to keep quite. The Jews were being hardened (John 12:39; Act 28:21-28; Rom. 9-11) and his mission was to train 12 men for a future task, provoke the Jews and die on a cross. In John 6 we have Jesus "running off" everyone except the 12 WHO THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM, which he clearly points out at the end of that discourse. Read the text!

 

npetreley,
Thanks for posting that Spurgeon sermon.
Great stuff !!

 

Perhaps if I number the points and add more explanation it will be easier to see the connection bewteen these texts and the point of free will in John 6.

#1. Again - Christ appeals to SEEING and then BELIEVING.

Note to Cavlinists: The statement above is not in the form of a historic past-tense act. simply
reading this and getting "Christ exists and there are also people that accept him in the world" is falling far short of the text. Though it may serve to ignore the point here for a moment.

The point remains - we must come to Christ and we must believe. It is a condition not a statement of historic fact. Instead of saying "and there were people who came and who believed" he is stating a principle. We must come to him AND we must believe AND to those that do this - the promise is that they will never thirst or hunger -- this is the promised response.

Turning it into some static historic account or record -- "Someone came and believed" is falling far short of the text.

SEEING Christ and the signs He performed called the people to CHOOSE whether to believe or not.

#2. Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are
not believing"

Nor did He say --- "Since I did not arbitrarily select you in the first place, I did not bother coming to you and ministering to you - so obviously you never had a viable option of choosing Me".

These Calvinist models are totally absent from the text.

- THESE methods are not Christs - but Satan's. Christ showed that HE was SHOWING them the bread of life - JUST as He showed to the disciples
but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to BELIEVE.


#3. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

This TOO is devastating to the Calvinist model because INSTEAD of finding that those who do not come - are being arbitrarily excluded from God's grace and so CAN NOT come -- what we find is that they DO come LATER. The VERY ONES that in John 6 are NOT coming to Christ - are the VERY ONES in Acts 2-4 who DO come to Christ.

The same model again - "You have SEEN ME - so BELIEVE" for the model is "EVERYONE who BEHOLDS the SON and BELIEVES.. will have eternal life" -
NO EMPHASIS is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I PITH WILL BE FORCED to BELIEVE". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

#1. But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”,

#2. nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”.


(Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).


#3. In fact (by contrast to Calvinism) in John 12 Christ will make it clear "I will DRAW ALL MEN" unto myself. The enticement - the drawing - the supernatural power moving like the gentle breeze of John 3 - is not FORCING the FEW and IGNORING the many - but is DRAWING ALL - gently and without being seen just as John 3 tells us.

This poses a huge problem for Calvinism in this case.


"Behold I stand at the door and knock" Rev 3 (John again). Not "Behold a burst through the door and slam dunk your mind causing you to choose Me". The "dragging all men to Me" part that Calvinism so desires to see in scripture - is not there.


45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


#1. Again He does not argue "They shall ALL be pithed of God" rather - they shall ALL be TAUGHT. And the emphasis again is on the one who has hears AND learns - gentle peaceable means - not force.

Just trying to make these points easy to follow.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not really, I don't know how you would seperate the two. One doesn't serve unless he is saved and he is not saved unless he serves. I'm not sure what your asking???

 

Southern,

I just read back through several of the posts and I think I may know where you are coming from now.

I don't think Jesus is necessarily speaking about soteriology (the doctrine of how one is saved) in John 6. Instead, I believe he is talking about the actual circumstances of that day. He, the incarnate Word, God in flesh, was walking the earth with a mission. A mission, mind you, that was GIVEN TO HIM BY HIS FATHER, who Christ clearly teaches that He got all his actions and words from. It seems to me that Christ also got those he was supposed to train FROM THE FATHER. The twelve were chosen (as John 6 clearly indicates) and the rest left Christ and no doubt were part of the mob who set back or even turned and called for his crucifixion. Why? They hadn't been given to him by the Father. They had been hardened.

So, when Christ is speaking at that time to a group of Jews and says, "None of you can come to me..." or "only those given to me by the Father can come to me..." couldn't it be that he is not teaching a soterilogical premise for all mankind, but instead that he is speaking about the fact that the Jews couldn't come to him because of their being hardened, except the twelve the Father had given to him? Doesn't the end of that discourse where everyone except the twelve leave him and he turns and says, "Did I not choose you the twelve..." indicate that it is them that he is refering to and not all believers in a general sense? Just consider that.

 

Southern,

I read back through my post and I can see how I may have caused confusion. Yes, Christ is clearly teaching about salvation, what I meant was that the words, "none of you can come to me unless the father draws him" etc doesn't have to be applied to a soteriology for all mankind. Christ is speaking about people coming to him and ultimately being saved but you must understand the context and the audience to which he is speaking.

CONTEXT:
The Jewish people are being hardened (John 12:39). This is the reason they cannot believe. Calvinists believe the reason they can't beleive is because they were born totally depraved. That is not a biblical teaching. They become hardened after their rebellion and then God chose to seal them in their disobedience in order to accomplish His purpose through them on the cross and in the ingrafting of the Gentile nation. So, in that context salvation (ie coming and following Christ) is limited to only those who have been appointed to come to him from Israel. The rest are being hardened. Its only after Christ is raised up that he draws ALL MEN to himself (John 12). That is when he sends the apostles to take what has been kept hidden in parables to the world to clearly hear and know. The gospel was sent into all the world. The soteriological context before Christ was crucified was different. Why? Because Christ didn't want people to believe in him. Read Matt. 13 and Mark 4 and that is made quite evident. He hid the message in parables and it even says that had he not hid it they might have been saved. How can that be in your system? After Christ was raised the mission changed from trying to provide atonement for the world to making the world know the truth. See the difference?

AUDIENCE:
The Jews. Only a remanant were chosen from Israel to be the firstfruits, that is the first to hope in Christ. These were the ones appointed to take the message to the rest of the world. This was the first flock of sheep Christ speaks of in John 10. The second flock are those who believe through the message of the first flock, which clearly explains why Christ would say you do not believe me because you are not my sheep. He is simply say you are not apart of the remanant reserved to come to me while I'm here on earth. That doesn't mean that they couldn't leave their unbelief AFTER Christ had accomplished his purpose. Read Romans 11 and you will see that they, the hardened Jews, still had hope of being saved. Though they were not the remnant chosen for noble purposes they could still be provoked by jealousy unto salvation (vs. 14) and leave their unbelief as stated later in that same chapter. Just as one could be ingrafted into the branch one could also become a sheep once the hardening was lifted.

 

Again, let me say I do believe Jesus is speaking about Salvation, even as it applies to us, but he is speaking about it within a context where he IS NOT allowing men to believe and thus be saved YET. Make sense???

Yes, I believe there was a select group given to the SON, while on earth, by the Father. The twelve is that group as clearly indicated at the end of that discourse. They certainly will be raised up in the last days, as will all those who believe in Christ through their message, but their message hasn't been sent at this point. It wasn't time yet. It hadn't been given to Israel to come to Christ, it had only been given to a remnant, who were selected and appointed for a unique task.

You say there is no mention of a "different goup" but I must disagree. Throughout scripture we read of "US" the apostles/Jews and "you/ those who believed through our message." We even see it clearly divided for us by Christ in John 17:

6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep* through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them *in the world, I kept them in *Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who *will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Do you see how Christ continually refers to the apostles as ones the Father had given him and that he loses none of them except the son of perdition (Judas). (Sounds very much like John 6 does it not?) Then he shifts and talks about another group of people; those who "will believe through their message."

We also see this in John 10 when Christ speaks of two folds of sheep that must come in. The first clearly being the remnant of Israel and then the second clearly being those who believe in Christ through the message of the first fold (primarily the Gentiles).

 

Ok, one more time...

Everyone who believes in Christ will be raised up on the last day but not everyone IS ABLE to believe and come to Christ AT THAT TIME because it has only been granted to a remant of Israel to come.....let me try approaching this from a different angle....bare with me.

Let's say you are a general and you have a mission you must accomplish. Its such an important mission you decide to send you own son to lead the mission despite the fact that you KNOW it will lead to his death. He has been trained by you and thinks and acts just like you in every way and he is the only one who can accomplish the task. You secretly, based upon your own knowledge, choose twelve men from the select core to assist your son on his mission. As you send him out you tell him, "Son, there are twelve men I am giving you to train before you die so that they can finish the mission you begin. They don't know they have been selected so you need to tell them. There are many other soilders in the core who will want to follow you once you get on the field and will even believe in your mission, but its not given to them. We need all others to remain ignorant and even opposed to the mission in order for the mission to succeed, so I have only enabled the twelve to come to you and be trained though others will try." The Son goes into the field and begins to recruit his men. In the meantime other soilders see the son and can tell he is up to something really big. They begin to follow the son and asking him many questions. The son is careful telling his recruits to keep things quite and speaking in code so those on the outside don't understand. The son even provokes the outsiders with his words making them angry, knowing full well that it will serve his mission later. In the midst of all this the son is asked many questions and he responds with words such as, "All those the father gives me come and be trained and I won't turn them away, but I will turn all others away. Only those the father has enabled can come to me and they will be rewarded in the end." Then the son goes on to say some of the most provoking words you can imagine driving everyone away except the twelve recruits. Little did the others know that the mission was to save not only the lives of the recruites but it was to save their lives as well, but just not until after the mission was accomplished.

See its a timing issue. I hope that helps. It may just further confuse the issue, but sometimes it helps to look at an objective story to get the picture. He is going to save all who believe upon him once he is lifted up, but he is not going to be lifted up if he is not first killed and it is the Jews who are going to kill him, which is why they have been hardened. They are unable to come to him. They have been sent a spirit of stupor the scripture says. They weren't born that way as TD suggests and they aren't that way because they are not elect as Calvinism suggests, they are that way because they have continually rebelled against God for years and God has temporarily hardened them in their unbelief to accomplish His ultimate mission through them.

Your doing fine. I understand your point but you must understand that what is true of the apostles may or may not be true of you and I; but what is true of us was true of the apostles. Make sense? In other words, they will be raised up in the last day because they were chosen for this noble task and believed in Christ while I wasn't chosen for the noble task but I believed in Christ through their message and so too I will be raised up in the final days as well. Its like if a teacher says to his current class, "If you do the work you will pass this class." Does that mean that all future classes who aren't even in the class yet won't pass her class? Of course not, she is addressing her class at that time but she is making a statement expressing the condition for anyone past, present or future to pass...doing the work. The condition (then and now) to being raised up is to believe upon Christ, which was not possible for the Jews as a whole at that time. It is possible for everyone now. Once he was raised up he draws ALL MEN to Himself.

 

I will correct you because its not entirely hinging on that one point. The context of the entire scripture is a much more significant hinge. Acts 28:21-28, John 12:39-41; Matt. 13; Mark 4; Romans 11 etc etc all of these verses describe the context of the day which is that the Jews were being blinded or hardened by God in their rebellion and could not repent at this time. Only a remnant of Israel were given to Christ to be his followers who were being trained and commissioned by Christ to take the message to the nations of the worlds (gentiles) who were being ingrafted. This ingrafting was meant to cause the hardened Jews to be provoked to jealousy so that some of them might leave their unbelief and be saved (Romans 11). That is the context in which John 6 is written and is the real "hinge" on which my arguement rests. The fact that he refers to the twelve specifically only supports that interpretation. Make sense?

But the fact is John in his commentary points out the exception by showing Judas was among the 12 yet was really apart of the rebellion in reality (though not yet known to them for obvious reasons). This actually stregthens my case because it points out the difference between the 11 and Judas. The 11 were set apart for one purpose while Judas was also set apart but for a whole other purpose. All the more reason to see the unique calling of the 11 who were peserved from the rebellious Israel nation.

God bless you [/QB][/QUOTE]