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John 6:37

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Jul 25, 2004.

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  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. -John 6:36, 37

    There were some who had seen Jesus but did not believe. Why? Arminians claim that "free will" is the decisive factor, but Paul asked the Corinthians, "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (1 Cor. 4:7) Calvinists claim, and rightly so, "That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (1 Cor. 1:31) The sovereign grace of God is the decisive factor, for we could not have come to Jesus Christ unless it was given unto us by His Father (John 6:65).
     
    #21 Primitive Baptist, Aug 6, 2004
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Calvinists believe it was because they were born Totally depraved but what does scripture say?

    Jhn 12:37   But though He had performed so many signs before them, {yet} they were not believing in Him.
    Jhn 12:38   {This was} to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
    Jhn 12:39   For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
    Jhn 12:40   "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

    So why weren't Jesus' audience able to believe? Because they were being temporarily and judicially hardened. You are correct that they hadn't been given to come to Christ for that was reserved for a remnant of Israel who would take the message of the cross to the world for all to have the opportunity to believe. Context is key!
     
    #22 Skandelon, Aug 6, 2004
  3. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Skan,
    What I said is that your argument "from the context" hinged on that one point. I would agree that John 6 does not stand alone in the New Testament and must be interpreted in light of all of scripture, but this forum is on John 6 and I still do not see why we should take Jesus' statement about choosing the twelve to mean the the same thing that verse 37 says in it's fullness. No doubt that in some texts the disciples alone could be spoken of collectively as given or chosen but their is no reason in the immediate context to limit this "giving" of the Father to the disciples and them alone given the fact that Judas Iscariot could not be one of the ones talked about in verse 37ff. I must ask because you keep stating the idea that this giving was for just for a specific time period, "When did this time period stop"?

    Maybe this will help me more fully understand where you are coming from.

    Thanks and God bless
     
    #23 Southern, Aug 9, 2004
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Southern,

    You agree that the context of the whole scripture is needed but yet in your response you neglect to deal with the greater context, which is really the "hinge".

    Lets look at them one at a time and I want you to deal with them. That means I want you to tell me what they mean in your understanding:

    1. Jesus was hiding the gospel message in parables so that those on the outside could not believe it and repent. Why would Christ need to hide a message from people who are unable to recieve it by their very inborn nature? (Mark 4; Matt. 13 etc)

    2. The Jews are being hardened and the text clearly indicates that had they not been hardened that they might have seen, heard, understood and repented. People become hardened, they aren't born that way and its clear that people who are not hardened do have the ability to see, hear, understand and repent. (Acts 28: John 12:39...etc)

    3. Jesus was telling his apostles to keep things quite and not to speak of his miracles, but later after his resurrection he tells them to go into all the world and preach the message to every creature. What changed?
     
    #24 Skandelon, Aug 9, 2004
  5. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Skan,
    When did this time period stop?

    Thanks
     
    #25 Southern, Aug 9, 2004
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    #3 in my last post will handle that question if you will honestly deal with it. [​IMG]
     
    #26 Skandelon, Aug 9, 2004
  7. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Hey Skan,

    Below are the questions that you asked:

    1. Jesus was hiding the gospel message in parables so that those on the
    outside could not believe it and repent. Why would Christ need to hide a
    message from people who are unable to recieve it by their very inborn
    nature? (Mark 4; Matt. 13 etc)


    Comment: This is simply another way of describing of the fact that He had no purpose for the immediate conversion of these people. A revelation of the truth in the power of the Holy Spirit with the purpose of conversion at that time would have resulted in their salvation. But mass conversion of thousands of the Jews was purposed to come later. Furthermore, He was allowing these people to demonstrate their own natural depravity. Withholding the truth in the power of the Holy Spirit was therefore necessary for His purpose at this time. He even withheld a lot of truth from His own disciples during this pre-cross period.


    2. The Jews are being hardened and the text clearly indicates that had they
    not been hardened that they might have seen, heard, understood and repented.
    People become hardened, they aren't born that way and its clear that people
    who are not hardened do have the ability to see, hear, understand and
    repent. (Acts 28: John 12:39...etc)


    Comment: God sent Moses before Pharoah with miracles, but Pharoah was only hardened, and became more hardened in his outward manifestations than previously. Men can always become more hardened, or become "worse and worse" in the manifestation of their sinful natures. Men are born with sinful natures, and those natures can become more and more productive of sinful thoughts and deeds in manifestation. Circumstances can be the occasions for more extensive manifestation of the basic sinful nature. Men do have the ability of capacity to see, hear, understand, and repent, but the nature which dominates those capacities will only become harder in manifestation unless the power of the Word accompanied by the Spirit overcomes their natural inclination.


    3. Jesus was telling his apostles to keep things quite and not to speak of
    his miracles, but later after his resurrection he tells them to go into all
    the world and preach the message to every creature. What changed?


    Comment:What "changed" was the bringing to pass or fulfillment of God's purpose. He had not purposed certain things to come to pass until after the resurrection. Had it been God's purpose, Jesus could have converted the whole world during His own ministry.

    My comment: Now may we turn all the way back to John 6 where we started. I would just like to recommend the following article to the readers who are following in the forum. Skan, this article responds to your dispensational hermeneutic that you bring into the text. I would like to say that you “have” to have this system in place before you come to the text because it is anything but exegesis. I think that this article is fair and Biblical to any unbiased reader who wants to understand John 6 in its immediate context.

    Here is the article for anybody and everybody who is interested:
    http://www.aomin.org/PFRSJohn6.html

    May God bless you
     
    #27 Southern, Aug 10, 2004
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Thanks for the link. This really pulls the rug out from under those who would shove John 6 into an inappropriate context in order to provide deceptive support for their soteriology, especially when John 6 provides its own context quite well.
     
    #28 npetreley, Aug 10, 2004
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yep, Nick everyone who disagrees with you is being deceptive. You got us. We're busted guys, lets give it up. :rolleyes:

    Grow up.
     
    #29 Skandelon, Aug 10, 2004
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