John 6:44 and ability to come to Christ

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Jn. 6:44 No man can [dunatai] come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Two points!

    1. The word "can" translates "dunatai" and speaks to ability/power not permission or authority and the words "no man" translates "oudeis" which is a combination of three Greek terms "ou" = not and "de" =indeed and "eis" = one and thus "indeed not one"

    2. The phrase "come to me" by context means to come to Christ by faith.

    The contextual proof that "come to me" is synonomous with "believe in me" is found in John 6:36-40

    36 But I said unto you, That ye also haveseen me, and believe not.37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    Note that those in verse 36 saw him but did not believe in him but all the Father gives to him both "seeth the Son, AND beleiveth on him" - v. 40

    In verses 37-39 the difference between seeing and believing versus seeing and not believing is that "ALL" the Father gives "cometh to me" or both sees and believes in him. This ABILITY is not inherent in any man but must be given in order for any man to come in faith to Christ.

    Just as the failure not to believe in Christ in verse 36 is attributed to the not being "given" to Christ [thus equal to being drawn] by the Father so unbelief in verse 64 is attributed to "it" not being given by the Father in verse 65



    A. You may explain drawing however you wish but this is an explicit denial that men are born with natural ability to come to Christ by faith.

    B. Coming to Christ is equal/synonymous with believing in Christ.
     
  2. billwald

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    Because we are all born in trespasses and sin and because we are all liars and because no one one seeks after righteousness it is logical to conclude that any righteous act done by any person is a consequence of his being drawn by the Father and directed by the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    That is not what the text is speaking about. Drawing has to do with coming to Christ. Drawing is the ENABLING CAUSE for coming to Christ.

    Regeneration is the source of righteous acts. Drawing is the enabling cause of coming to Christ by faith.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    Billy Graham and most other evangelists use the expression "come to Jesus" to mean believe on him. This is how it is used in the New Testament and that is obvious when you examine how Christ uses it by contrast in John 6:36 to John 6:40.

    The crowd in verse 36 saw Christ and did not believe whereas the reverse is seen in verse 40 that they saw and believed in Him. The explanation between the two is found in verses 37-39. The Father must give a person to Christ for that person to "come" to Christ. This is seen in verse 44 where the Father must "draw" a person in order for that person to come to Christ.

    The overall context between John 6:29-65 is believing in Christ and many metaphors are used by Christ (eating, drinking = partaking by faith; cometh to me,).

    Hence, this is iron clad Biblical proof that faith which justifies is not resident in all humans by nature (2 Thes. 3:2) but must be "given" by God and thus a gift of God's grace (Rom. 4:16; Eph. 2:8).
     
  5. JarJo

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    Yes, God attempts to draw all men to Christ by giving them the gift of faith. But some men reject this gift.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Did the text say God "tries" to draw all men? No! Why not be honest with the text? Does John 6:37-39 say "SOME" that are given by the Father to Son come and then only "SOME" that come are not cast out or lost? No! Why not be honest with the Scripture text?

    I will tell you why you are not honest with the Scripture text because you are more interested in making the scriptures say and mean what you want them to say and me (2 Cor. 4:1).
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Did the text say God "tries" to draw all men? No! Why not be honest with the text? Does John 6:37-39 say "SOME" that are given by the Father to Son come and then only "SOME" that come are not cast out or lost? No! Why not be honest with the Scripture text?

    I will tell you why you are not honest with the Scripture text because you are more interested in making the scriptures say and mean what you want them to say and mean (2 Cor. 4:1).

    Take note the three time repeated rebuke by Christ to your assumption of 'try"

    "I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. - v. 39 - NO TRY HERE

    "and I will raise him up at the last day." - v. 40 - NO TRY HERE

    "and I will raise him up at the last day." - v. 44 - NO TRY HERE
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jan 24, 2012
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  8. JarJo

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    The word "draw" implies that it is something God tries to do. To draw means to attract or lure. These words imply that the person being drawn or attracted has a choice, and has to be convinced to go along with it. You can't forcibly draw someone. That would be an oxymoron.

    "You seduced me, LORD, and I let myself be seduced;"
     
    #8 JarJo, Jan 24, 2012
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  9. The Biblicist

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    Better go look up the term in a Biblical lexicon and then note how it is used. The term "draw" translates a term that does mean FORCIBLY drawn.

    Also, take note of the three repeated phrases which demand that every single solitary person that is given does come and every single solitary one drawn by God does come and Christ raises them to life in the resurrection. No "try" implied, inferred, but totaly denied!

    The Greek term translated "draw" does not mean entice or tempt or influence but to forcibly draw something as when fisherman draw in a net with fish.
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Jan 24, 2012
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  10. JarJo

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    That's a completely different thing in a different set of bible verses.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Did you read John 6:44??? Apparently not! Try reading it as you will see that phrase ends that verse.

    Furthermore, John 6:44 by that conclusion is topically tied to verses 6:37-43 where the same phrase is repeated twice?

    Did you note that coming to Christ is the same subject of John 6:37-39 as it is in John 6:44 and the same closing phrase characterizes both passages? Apparently not! Try reading it before you comment.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Note that "ALL" the Father gives "shall come" but NONE can come except the Father draws him but the one drawn will be raised up.

    Note that "ALL" that come NONE shall be cast out and so NONE that the Father gives shall be lost but every one given shall be raised up at the last day.


    That is not an "ATTEMPT" but that is 100% success in each and every one that is given and drawn.
     
  13. JarJo

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    Oh well, I'm sure someone else can understand better what you're saying. I find it really confusing.
     
  14. JarJo

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    This is how I see it:

    1. God draws everyone in "persuade you" kind of way
    2. Some of them come, some of them do not come
    3. The ones that come, came as a result of the drawing of the Father. Therefore they have been given to Christ by the Father.
     
    #14 JarJo, Jan 24, 2012
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  15. The Biblicist

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    You are confused because you don't even read the scripture you are trying to comment about!

    You are confused because you don't even look up the terms you are trying to define and see what they actually mean!

    You are confused because you are attempting to comment on a text you know nothing about.

    Try reading it first.

    Try looking up the term and finding what it means and how it is used in the Bible.

    Then try to comment.
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    the bib

    I agree with that ! Because those who come to Him He shall never cast out Jn 6:37

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    The coming was the believing to the saving of the soul Heb 10:39

    39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Not to confuse the believing as the cause of the saving of the soul, but as the fruit of the saving of the soul. True Believers believe or come to Christ because of the saving of the Soul.. They believe or come because they are saved !
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Look, I am not changing the subject of this thread to follow your rabbit trail. If you want to discuss the relationship between regeneration and faith or God's overall purpose of salvation to faith do so on another thread not this one.
     
  18. Moriah

    Moriah
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    The Old Testament believers in God were God’s people. Not all Old Testament Jews were true believers. The people who did love and believe in God, God gave them to Jesus. God’s people who loved and believed in Him, they now had to go through Jesus in faith to continue with God.. They are the people who God enabled to come to Jesus during Jesus’ ministry on earth. The Jews who did not truly believe in God, God hardened them so they were not able to come to Jesus. The people who are drawn to Jesus, they are drawn because they are all ready believers in God the Father.

    The people, the Jews, who loved and believed in God, they recognized what Jesus said as God’s word, and in this, they are drawn. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:44, 45 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. Did you see that? Jesus says, "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
    Did you see that in the last sentence where Jesus says “Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me”? THAT is why they come to Jesus, because they recognize what Jesus says as God's word!

    The people were already God’s, now they would become Jesus’ people. Those who did not believe in God, they were hardened. God did not allow them to come to Jesus. Only a remnant, the lost sheep of Israel would come to Jesus (Matthew 10:6; 15:24). John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. See also, John 3:37, 39; 6:65; 10:28; 15:21-24; 16:3; 17:2, 9, 24; Romans 11:4, 5, 7; Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40. John 8:19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?” "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    The comment I made was not to change the subject, but actually agreed with you.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Well, I didn't agree with some aspects of your comment but I am not going to turn this thread into addressing those aspects of your comment that I did not agree with.

    John 6:44 proves that faith is not a work of man but a work of God because no man can "come to Christ" (synonymn for believe in Christ) except God draw him. When God draws what is being drawn comes and thus ability to believe is being drawn by God and thus a work of God not of man.
     

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