I am not reformed and this is not about reformed doctrine. There have been some, who I do not remember, on this board that have argued that man has a natural ability to come to God on his own. That faith is found within man. While I am not reformed (Calvinist) I reject such a notion. What do we do with the verse below when we hold that man can come to God on his own: Joh_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. *Note The topic of discussion is this verse and this verse alone. Please refrain from side tracking this thread.