Featured John 6:44

So God sovereignly chooses some? Isn't that what we've been saying all along?? :BangHead:

 

Back to the meaning of this verse. There is nothing irresistible in the sense of this text where it says that God "draws" people. Even Augustine when commenting on this passage says that one cannot believe unless he is willing (credere non potest, nisi volens). So we pray that God will help us and others to understand that the gospel is true and to incline our (and others') will to embrace and obey the gospel through the powerful influence of the Holy Spirit.

 

Calvinists love to quote John 6:44 to support their view, but almost always ignore verse 45 which explains how this drawing is accomplished.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 44 does indeed say no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Verse 45 explains HOW this is done. Jesus said that EVERY MAN that has heard, and hath learned of the Father comes to him.

So, this drawing is connected with having heard something, and being taught or learning from what he has heard from the Father.

What else can that be except the scriptures, the Word of God?

And Jesus shows this later in the chapter.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus is speaking of the Word of God throughout this chapter. This is what draws us. And unless the Father had provided his Word, not one person can possibly come to Jesus.

Men are not supernaturally zapped with the knowledge of Jesus. If you know of Jesus it was because you either read the scriptures, or heard someone preaching the scriptures, or someone witnessing to you from the scriptures.

Without the Word of God you could not possibly know who Jesus is and could not possibly believe on him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul here asks how it is possible for a man to believe on Jesus if they have never heard of him? You couldn't. Paul does not mention being supernaturally regenerated here or anywhere else in all of scripture. In fact, Paul says it is the word of God that enables a person to believe.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing, which is exactly what Jesus showed in John 6:45. Those who hear and learn from the Father are enabled to believe and come to Jesus. God provides his Word, which is enough to convince and persuade us to believe on Jesus, but the hearing is OUR respsonsibility. If a man refuses to hear and believe the Word of God, it is impossible for him to come to Jesus. Therefore, if you did come, it was because the Word of God was given to you by the Father.

The scriptures NEVER say we are supernaturally regenerated to have the ability to believe. The scriptures say we are taught by the Word of God and this is what enables us to believe.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul say a person is supernaturally regenerated to have the ability to believe here? NO. He said the scriptures are ABLE to make us WISE unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

I know how I was saved. When I heard the scriptures that told me that Jesus was the Son of God and gave his life to save me from my sins I was immediately drawn to him. How can you not love Jesus for dying for you?

 

Let me throw something into the mix here and get reaction.

What is the point of Jesus saying "except he be drawn" if, in fact, all are drawn?

And, in John 6:65, what is the point of Jesus' saying no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father if, in fact, the Father gives the ability to all?

Can we extract from this that not all are drawn and not all are given the ability to come by the Father?

This certainly would explain the fact that some come and some don't.

 

Of course you are correct here...it is not given to everybody.:thumbs:

 

You are reading into it what it does not say. It does not say that only some are drawn, it simply says all who come were drawn, they did not come of themselves.

Luk 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Jesus here compares unbelievers to children in the marketplace who piped music and called people to dance, but they would not dance. They were called, but they refused to come. And notiice they were called through hearing, either through music, or mourning. They were not zapped.

Now, were they piped to? YES. Were they called? YES. But they refused to come. However, if they did come, it was because they were piped to and called. This is what Jesus is saying, any person who comes to Jesus did so not of themselves, but because they were drawn and called by the Father through the Word of God which Jesus explains in verse 45.

Jesus was not saying only some were drawn. You read that into the verse to support your doctrine. This is how Calvinists interpret scripture.

 

I didn't just one day wake up and decide to be a Calvinist, and then find scriptures to support it. And I'm trying not to read into these passages something it doesn't say.

So, let's look again at what John 6:44 and 6:65 say:

You and I agree. All who come were drawn. And all who come were given that ability by the Father.

I'm assuming that your position is that all are drawn and all are given the ability to come by the Father. And I hold that they are not.

So, you, of necessity, will conclude that the reason some don't come is that they aren't willing.

I agree that they don't come because they aren't willing.

Seems clear to me. Those who come are drawn. Those who don't come aren't drawn.

Those who come were given the ability by the Father. Those who don't come, weren't.

I, of necessity, conclude that they weren't willing because they were not drawn or given the ability.

Since we start with different premises, we come out with different conclusions. Each is driven by how we exegete the scriptures. Neither of us tries to make scriptures fit our views.

I have another passage for us to tackle in a later post. It's also in John.

 

Here's that other passage I mentioned.
John 12:37-40

This, to me, is an even harsher passage than those in John 6. Here', John is saying that those Jews didn't believe because they couldn't. And the reason they couldn't is that God had hardened and blinded them, just as he did those Israelites to whom Isaiah preached.

I have to say that I'd just as soon that this passage wasn't in there. But I am bound to accept the scriptures. Even the one's I don't like.

 

The "generation" that Jesus is referring to is the Jews who loved to be seen in the market places and flaunt their long robes and giant tassels in the pretense of being the most righteous among men. He rebukes them for acting childish and goes on to explain how they condemned John the Baptist for being led by demons because he didn't eat or drink and at the same time condemning Jesus because He did.

This passage is not about God's drawing people to salvation, it's about the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and their belief that they alone held all the truth.

 

Yes, that's harsh and hard to accept, but it says what it says. This relates to the point I've tried to make that some will accept that God sovereignly blinds, but take offense to God sovereignly un-blinding others and cry 'that's not fair'.

 

WOW....you got that right sister:thumbs:

 

Who has done that? Did you ever do that in your second stint around as a non cal?

 

With all due respect, and I really mean that, this response shows me that you have not given a fair hearing to the non-Calvinistic perspective on this. Its fine if you "side" with Calvinism, but you shouldn't do so without first really understanding the scholarly alternative.

As I've attempted to explain before, God did sovereignly and unconditionally choose a handful of people from Israel so that His purpose in electing Israel would stand. What was His purpose in electing Israel? To bring redemption to the world by bringing us the messiah and the divinely appointed messengers. The father gave the Son the apostles but the rest of Israel was judicially hardened. The apostles didn't deserve being selected for this 'noble purpose.' They were NOT wiser or more holy or better in any way, God simply chose them to bring the message of redemption to world, which is what Israel was elected to do. Do you understand?

 

The chosen are called out from the called.

 

We have six pages on this thread with Calvinists again asserting what is not said. Consider John 12:37-40: New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”

Who are the "they" who were not believing Him? Those who were blinded so they could not perceive! All of the multitude or some of the multitude? Jesus says for those among the multitude to walk with the light that the darkness will not overtake you. Thus some had not been blinded because they had not been overtaken with darkness. But then, verse 36, Jesus addresses others among the multitude, those who are walking in darkness.

And so for anyone who can read, we have folks who have not been blinded and folks who have among the multitude. But how to the Calvinists describe the passage? Certainly not that it again shows Calvinism is false doctrine, claiming everyone from conception is overtaken by darkness. And then they offer the strawman that accepting what scripture says is a basis for accepting what scripture does not say. No kidding, that was the argument.

 

Van....take a look;
This spiritual union of the believer with Christ—the reality of the infallible, eternal redemptive purpose may be described and explained in the following terms:
• It is an organic union. Believers become members of Christ as members of an organism, albeit this organism is spiritual. This spiritual union is to find expression in the local assembly (1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:11–16; Phil. 1:27).
• It is a vital union. The life of Christ becomes the dominating and energizing principle within the believer (Gal. 2:20; Rom. 6:11–14; 8:5–14; 2 Cor. 13:5).
• It is a spiritual union. Not only is this union spiritual in nature, it is mediated and sustained by the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a personal union. Every believer is personally or individually united to Christ directly as to his spiritual life (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 2:20).
• It is a legal or federal union. As the believer was once identified or in union with Adam, so he is now in union with Christ (Rom. 5:12–21). All the legal or covenant obligations of the believer rest on or are met in Christ, and all the legal or covenant merits accrue to the believer.
• It is a reciprocal union. This takes into account both the objective and subjective aspects. The initial action is on the part of Christ, to whom the believer in faith reacts, interacts, or reciprocates. This is not only union, but necessarily communion with the triune Godhead through Christ (Jn. 14:6, 9, 16–17, 20; Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a transforming union. Believers are changed into the image of Christ according to his human nature. This began at regeneration, when the image of God was restored in principle in righteousness, holiness of the truth and knowledge (Eph. 4:22–2442; Col. 3:9–10) and continues throughout the Christian experience as believers are “conformed to the image of his Son” in maturity, sufferings, etc. (Rom. 6:6, 14; 8:9–10; 14–17, 29; Eph. 2:10).
41 “…if we died with him…” (sunapeqa,nomen)., i.e., were identified or brought into union in his death.
42 Eph. 4:22–24 should read as does Col. 3:10—as a present condition based on a past fact, i.e., “you have [already] put on…you have [already] put off…” not as a command. Cf. the use of the aor. inf. of result. See footnote 228.
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• It is an inscrutable union. This is what old Divines termed the “mystical union” of Christ and his own, i.e., this union is mysterious in the sense of being incomprehensible and incapable of intelligent comprehension in our finite state.
• It is an indissoluble union. This relation, identification or union between Christ and the believer can never be dissolved. Note that, in biblical teaching, justification by faith has an immediate relation to assurance of faith (e.g., Rom. 5:1–3). This relationship is both necessary and logical because of the reality of the believer’s indissoluble union with Christ.
Thus, the believer’s union with Christ stands at the very center of all redemptive truth and forms the objective scriptural basis for the final perseverance of the true people of God.

 

Sure he does!

There are several types of the election of persons revealed in Scripture:
national, messianic, ministerial and salvific: first, there is the Divine choice of
Israel to be the chosen people of God in a national sense, although only a
small remnant of that nation was truly the spiritual people of God (Cf. Deut.
4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Psa. 135:4; Isa. 41:8–9; 44:1; 45:4; Rom. 4:11–17;
9:6–9, 23–24; 11:1–6). Israel in its national election was typical of God’s elect
spiritually chosen under the New or Gospel Covenant.

Second, there is the election of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Elect” of God
and true “Seed of Abraham.” In the choice of Abraham, God chose a nation,
and in that nation, he chose an individual—the Messiah—and in that
individual, he chose a true covenant people—believers (Isa. 42:1–7; Jer.
31:31–34; Luke 23:35; Gal. 3:15–16; Eph. 1:4–5; Heb. 8:8–13; 1 Pet. 2:4–9).
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Third, there is also an election unto service, as revealed in the choice of
Moses, the Levites, various kings, etc. (Deut. 21:5; 2 Sam. 6:21; 1 Chron.
28:5; Psa. 78:67–68; 105:26; 106:23). This principle is retained in the New
Testament with the Divine call to the gospel ministry (Acts 9:10–16; 13:2–4).


Finally, there is an eternal, personal election unto holiness, which includes
the totality of salvation and derives from the eternal Covenant of Redemption
and Grace, or the believer’s eternal union with Christ (Rom. 8:29–31; 11:5–6;
Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4–5, 11; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 2 Pet. 1:10). See Questions 66 and
69.
There are two possible bases or foundations for Divine election: foreseen
faith based on a bare foreknowledge [prescience], or a covenant love
grounded in the Divine prerogative and expressed in free and sovereign grace.
The Scriptures reveal that the ultimate cause of Divine election rests in the
depths of Divine love and prerogative. God is never moved or motivated
externally to himself. He is ever motivated from within his own self–
consistency. Should he be mutable due to external causes, he would cease to
be God, and be relative to his creation and subject to some nebulous, external
absolute force such as chance or some impersonal fatalistic principle. The

Scriptures reveal that the Divine choice of sinners to salvation rests in God
alone. This is for the assurance and encouragement of the believer in his
present experience—that he might be assured of the certain and infallible
nature of his salvation, especially in the context of present trials and
opposition (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Eph. 1:4–5; Rom. 8:28–39; 9:13–
14; 11:33–36).
What of foreknowledge? Divine election based on foreseen faith would be
election by mere foreknowledge [prescience]. The biblical usage must
determine the exact significance of the term. What is the biblical teaching
concerning the foreknowledge of God? Foreknowledge is not synonymous
with omniscience. It is concerned, not with contingency, but with certainty
(Acts 2:23; 15:18; Rom. 8:29–30), and thus implies a knowledge of what has
been rendered certain. Acts 2:23 would make foreknowledge dependent upon
God’s “determinate counsel” by the grammatical construction which
combines both together as one thought with “foreknowledge” referring to and
enforcing the previous term. Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament
term “to know,” implying an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object
(Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29;
11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much
more than mere prescience or omniscience—a relationship that is absolutely
certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being foreknown is
clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18).
Because Divine election or foreordination to eternal life is grounded in the
immutable character of God, it is infallible. Were it based upon foreseen faith,
mere prescience, or human ability, it would remain fallible and mutable.
Because of its infallible and immutable character, Divine election or
foreordination to eternal life is the source of the greatest comfort,
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encouragement and perseverance to the believer. This is exactly the way in
which and the reason why this truth is revealed in Scripture! Note especially
the great and glorious statement of the Apostle in Romans 8:28–39. Under
inspiration, he puts this truth in the context of the present promise (v. 28), the
eternal redemptive purpose (v. 29–34), the very worst that believers can
experience (v. 35–36), the redemptive, covenant love of the Lord Jesus Christ
(v. 37) and the infallibility of the Covenant of Grace (v. 38–39).
God has ordained the preaching of the gospel as the means to bring the
elect to faith in Christ in time and experience (Rom. 10:14–15, 17; 1 Thess.
1:4–10; 2:13). He has ordained the means as well as the end. To glory in the
end without fulfilling the means would be inconsistent and sinful by
disobedience. See Questions 139–140. Can you say that you are included in
this number by Divine grace?

Used by permission from....A Baptist Cathechism with Commentary....by W.R. Downing

 

God is God...he alone has determined what is best by His Decree.
Sinful men resist this at all times....those made willing by God's grace, mercy, and love....trust and obey....for there is no other way...to be happy in Jesus.....but to trust and obey in His absolute sovereignty over all things without exception......No open theism here.....No federal Vision/Npp ...justifcation and sanctifcation....all of works....nope:thumbs:

 

Jeremiah 23:

Luke 11:
44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”

45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.”

46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Luke 13:
34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”


One day there will be an elect that will preach the message that God had sent them out to preach and there will be amount included with them when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed that will not be able to be counted.

How many generation most perish before we do what God sent us out to do.

If you preach to a million people and they do not believe you continue to do what God sent you out to do, it is God who changes hearts. It is a shame when we make it personal and come to another message to make us feel better, but we all know the message Jesus sent us out with.

John 21:22
Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”23Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

Key to John 6:44 is with light of other scripture not human conclusion.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.