1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured John Calvin :Man Of The Millennium

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Rippon, Apr 27, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for posting facts.
     
  2. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Worldwide fact: Mankind is depaved--totally. The best of our righteousness is filthy rags.

    Jesus is the only one worthy of lifting up; yet we have a rabid case of respect of persons.

    Come out of nominal christianity and follow Jesus, The Christ, The Son of the Living God.

    Jon Chauvin was a pedobaptist heading up a state religion--completely contrary to Jude 3.

    Are there any Real Baptists left out there? Fall in--before Jesus.

    Peace,

    Bro. James
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are so many lies with this article;ah,yes,some facts as well;but repugnant falsehoods abound.

    The Libertines were in charge. Thay were Calvin's enemies. Calvin did not want Servetus burned. A more merciful form of execution,beheading is what he argued for. Calvin was essentially called soft for this.

    Completely false. The other Swiss cantons were all in favor of Servetus's death.

    So utterly false. Calvin was not in charge,and as I said he did not want him to be burned,but Calvin's authority was trumped by the Libertines.
    John Calvin insisted that his men use green wood for the fire because it burned slower.

    You are in need of God's mercy.

    False. But so many things in the article are false. I can't hardly begin to list them. Go and talk to an elder in the faith one a one-to-one basis. Hopefully one that has some factual knowledge of church history. You are the loose cannon you once described yourself to be. But you need to be under the care of elders and deacons in your church.

    You show little to no discernment. The website you gleaned your article from is terrible. It is filled with the vitrol and falsehoods.

    You hate Calvin for reasons that disregard facts. You also seem to hate me. But Christians are called upon to love their brothers and sisters. Your venom is very apparent. It's not healthy;nor is it spiritual.

    Facts are inconvenient things it was said by J.C.Ryle. It gets in the way of things. You imbibe non-truths. But you can't alter history. If you sincerely believe the things contained in the article. It is a pity. You are completely in the wrong and yet exposing your error to many.

    But I do hope,with the grace of the Lord you will come to confess that the article was not Christian in the least.
     
  4. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvin was a despot and murderer.

    "The outstanding work of Calvin, from a practical point of view, was his municipal dictatorship in the city of Geneva. The literature on the subject is exhaustive. Striking instances of discipline in Geneva are these:

    A man was banished from the city for three months because he heard an ass bray and said jestingly, "He prays a beautiful Psalm."

    Three men who had laughed during a sermon were imprisoned for three days.

    Three children were punished because they remained outside of a church to eat some cakes.

    A child was whipped publicly for calling his mother a thief.

    A girl who struck her parents was beheaded.

    A person was imprisoned for four days because he wanted to call his child Claude (the name of a Catholic saint) instead of Abraham.

    It can be seen from the above that many of the persecutions which John Calvin endured were not for "well doing" (1 Peter 2:15): they were for carrying on like a fool engaged in trying to "bring in his Kingdom."

    In Geneva, a secret police was forged under the name of The Consistory. Every home was compulsorily examined and searched. The City was divided into districts and committees of the Consistory were empowered to search and interrogate all residents without previous notice. Attendance at public worship was commanded and watchmen were directed to see that people went to church. The one thing that Calvin did not endorse was religious liberty.

    From 1541 to 1546, John Calvin caused 58 people to be executed and seventy six were exiled. His victims ranged in age from 16 to 80. The most common capital offense was the opposition to infant baptism. Today, baptism only for accountable believers, is a Baptist distinctive. In Calvin's time it was punished either by drowning, a drawn out and slow burning at the stake, or beheading. All this was done in public, with city residents compelled to watch the butchery. The executions were spaced out so as to exert a continuing policy of fear and terror. Others were killed for advocating local church autonomy; opposing the tie-in of church and state: and preaching that Christ died for all sinners (unlimited atonement). Press censorship continued in Geneva until the eighteenth century.

    THE KILLING OF MICHAEL SERVETUS

    It is Servetus' religious views that we are now concerned with, for that is what got him killed. He was premillennial and rejected Calvin's doctrine of predestination. So far so good. Servetus was also strongly anti-Catholic. He referred to the Mass as "a Satanic monstrosity and an invention of demons." To these sentiments the Reformers could agree. So what was the problem with Servetus? His trouble was twofold: rejection of infant baptism and holding unorthodox views of the Trinity.

    According to Servetus, infant baptism was "a doctrine of the Devil, an invention of popery, and a total subversion of Christianity." He wrote two letters to Calvin on adult baptism and exhorted him to follow his example. The marginal, notes against infant baptism that Servetus wrote in Calvin's Institutes were used as evidence against him during his trial. Servetus admitted at his trial that he had referred to infant baptism as a "diabolical invention and infernal falsehood destructive of Christianity." Regarding the Trinity, Servetus was not a Unitarian but had a strange view of the Trinity in a great measure peculiar to himself. Now although Servetus' Trinitarian views were not orthodox; they were by no means criminal. Calvin wrote in a letter, "Servetus lately wrote to me... He takes it upon him to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail."

    While in Geneva, Servetus made the mistake of attending church on Sunday where he was recognized and arrested. It was on Calvin's information to the magistracy that Servetus was put in prison, which fact Calvin did not deny. The trial lasted over two months and Calvin himself drew up a document of thirty-nine accusations against Servetus.
    On the way to the stake, Servetus besought God to pardon his accusers. On account of the use of green oak-wood, Servetus suffered for half an hour. His last words were: "Jesus Christ, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me!" At twelve noon on October 27, 1553, Servetus passed into his eternal destiny. Nine years afterward, Calvin still justified his actions.

    The strongest recorded statement from Calvin on the Servetus affair is a 1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre, in which he says intolerantly:

    "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."

    The respected Lutheran historian, Mosheim (1694-1755), judged in favor of Servetus. The historian Gibbon remarked: "he was more deeply scandalized at the single execution of Servetus than at the hecatombs which have blazed in the Auto da Fes of Spain and Portugal. The zeal of Calvin seems to have been envenomed by personal malice, and perhaps envy."

    A man who would burn another man at the stake for disagreeing with him doctrinally is not a man to be emulated or followed or admired."
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The most pracvtical work of Calvin? The Institutes of the Christian Religion



    Documentation please.




    Documentation please.

    "In Calvin's time" it was said. Your article with the unknown author is making the above up. Documentation is sorely needed.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sir, you are in need of God's mercy. Your standards of conduct are so warped they are not even worthy of comment. I despise Calvin because he went beyond the normal sin pattern of any decent human being. To add insult, an entire doctrine worthy of everyone's attention was named after him. How dare you, as a Christian, well versed in church history, start a thread praising a monster.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you will not acknowledge the lies you posted were indeed lies. (You can claim you didn't know at the time) The truth is still at stake. If you will not acknowledge and confess their error of your ways,then I leave you to God's mercy. You need much better discernment. You demonstate a low maturity level. I repeat the need for you to seek out an elder or deacon from your church to avail yourself of spiritual counsel.

    And with all the hatred you have shown me in the past to the present,along with your detestation of Calvin...may I remind you that harboring hatred in your heart amounts to murder. You do believe in the binding authority of the content of the Sermon on the Mount;don't you?
     
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dr.Philip Vollmer quotes Dr. Valentine Andreae. He was a German Lutheran and not in favor of Calvinism shall we say? He visited Geneva in 1610,almost 50 years after Calvin's death.

    "When I was in Geneva,I observed something great which I shall remember and desire as long as I live. There is in that place not only the perfect institute of a perfect republic,but as a special ornament,a moral discipline,which makes weekly investigations into the conduct,and even the smallest transgressions of the citizens,first through the district inspectors,then through the seniors,and finally through the magistrates,as the nature of the offence and the hardened state of the offender may require. All cursing,gambling,luxury,strife,hatred,fraud,etc.,are forbidden,while greater sins are hardly heard of. What a glorious ornament of the Christian religion is such a purity of morals! We must lament with tears that it is wanting with us,and almost totally neglected. If it were not for the difference of religion,I would have forever been chained to that place by the agreement in morals,and I ever since tried to introduce someting like it into our churches. No less distinguished than the public discipline was the domestic discipline of my landlord,Sarron,with its daily devotions,reading of the Scriptures,the fear of God in word and deed,temperance in meat and drink and dress. I have not found greater purity of morals even in my father's home." (175,176)
     
  9. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0

    The author is not unknown. I simply chose to quote only part of the article, as some of it might be inflammatory to my Calvinist friends here. I am strongly opposed to Calvinism but not to Calvinists, generally speaking.

    The article used the following as reference material:


    REFERENCES:

    1. Christianity Through The Centuries by Earle Cairns, Zondervan Publishing House.
    2. History of Calvin and Calvinism by Zygmund Dobbs.
    3. Predestined for Hell? No! by Dr. John R. Rice, c 1958, Sword of the Lord Foundation, Murfreesboro, Tenn.
    4. Hyper Calvinism by Dr. Peter S. Ruckman c 1984, published in Pensacola, Florida.
    5. The Other Side of Calvinism by Laurence M. Vance, c 1991, Vance Publications.
    6. T-U-L-I-P by James R. Hood, Southland Bible Institute, Pikeville, Ky.
    7. The History of the New Testament Church by Dr. Peter S. Ruckman c 1982, published in Pensacola, Florida.
    8. Foreknowledge, Predestination & Election by Dr. Mark G. Cambron, printed by Seaside Mission, North Miami Beach, Florida.
    9. What is Wrong with Five Point Calvinism? By Paul Freeman, published by Highways & Hedges Tracts, Liberty, So. Carolina.


    Deny it a thousand times, but the facts are that Calvin was a state-church, persecuting, despotic murderer. If you want to idolize such a creature, you have a problem that only God can help you with.
     
    #49 Thomas Helwys, May 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2013
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hmm...authors Rice,Vance and Ruckman are not going to advance tjhe cause of "accuracy" shall we say when it comes to things about Calvin and Calvinism. Look how objective Ruckman is regarding Bible translations!

    I will have to look up Dobbs,Hood,Freeman and Cambron. I am not expecting them to be any whit better than the others ones when it comes to this subject.
    That is,with the grand exception of Cairns.
     
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    Why would I acknowledge things that are not lies? If the truth were at stake, then you would not have started the thread on a false premise. Compared to you, my discernment is very high, my maturity level is very high, and sure do not need your advice about a counsel. I would suggest all this to you, as it seems you want to make a thug, fraud, murderer, and dictator into a viable servent of the Lord.

    You are pathetic.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Hear,hear.
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The things I pointed out to as lies were in fact really lies. Your continual adavancement of lies is showing your lack of not only discernment now,but severe spiritual maturity. You will not accept correction. And why? Because of your pride. You hate what you want to think Calvin was. If anyting goes against that central thesis then you refuse to concede even when truth is at stake.

    I went through and showed you some of the false things in your article. A lie,is a lie,is a lie. You offered absolutely no documentation to verify the truthfulness of the "report."

    You persist in your old ways. Yet you promised in personal messages to me nearly four years ago that you were sorry and that you would never say anything about him in the fashion you did at that time. You said you would only comment on the so-called 5 points. I guess you have willfully gone back on your word. And your invectives do not help your cause.

    If you still go to the same church as Tom Butler does,I am quite sure that many others there would have a high estimation of John Calvin. And I think they would be embarrassed at that intemperance you demonstrate on the BB. I also think they would also invoke some church discipline on you.

    Oh,you are expressing your tenderness,and sympathy for me? If you mean the complete opposite, then just review my previous post directed to you about your hatred toward me. You are guilty of murder according to the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.
     
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes I hate what Calvin was. That is the truth. If someone asked you, what is truth, you answer would be duh.


    Huh, no you did not. Your copy and pasted your opinion.




    First of all, that is not true. If it were true, it is against the rules to divulge persoanl messages. That is why it is called personal. You are not too bright, are you?



    Where I go to church and with whom is none of your business and has nothing to do with this op. What the members of my church think of John Calvin has nothing to do with this op. They would not be embarrased at my posts, they would praise the Lord you are not a member.




    Nope, I am expressing what I think of any person who praises Calvin. Why dont you just skip all the introductions and start worshiping him. You could change the name from the Trinity to the Quad God, and add Calvin as a fourth member.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But if you believe lies it would not in fact be truth



    Oh,but it is very true.

    You went against your personal pledge to me. That's why I revealed that;and your profuse apology.

    If you act the same way in your posts as you do at church and you haven't been disciplined yet I agree that your church is not living up to the authority of the Word of God.



    You need a better editor than I to expunge all your lies and venom. You are quite the irreverent one.
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You acknowlege that I know some church history. Then,why did you post lies about the man of Geneva,when I pointed them out to you. You obviously don't know church history and rely on hate-filled websites to get your "info."

    I wonder if it has crossed your mind that a number of famous Christians of the past and present have admired John Calvin and value his writings. They appreciate his godlines and scholarship and the endring quality of his good influence up on the Church universal.

    Here is my personal roll call. It's not in alphabetical order,and the men sometimes spanned cenuries. It is not exhaustive.They all have regarded Calvin very highly. And if they have why can't a lowly worm as myself appreciate Calvin's standing under God?

    16th Century
    Farel,Beza,Viret,Peter Martyr,Bullinger,Knox

    17th Century
    Thomas Goodwin,Owen,Charnock,Turretin,Baxter and most of the Puritans.

    18th Century
    Edwards,Whitefield,Gill

    19th Century
    Spurgeon,Hodge,Cunningham,Rippon :laugh:

    20th Century
    Barnhouse,Warfield,Machen,Dr.M-L-J,Boice,A.W.Pink,Gordon Clark,Carl Henry

    21 Century
    MacArthur,Sproul,Dever,Piper,Packer,Horton, Al Mohler,David Wells

    Are you going to charge them of operating under a false premise if words of appreciation for John Calvin comes from their sermons/commentaries/writings?
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sat/Nep: You have severe spiritual immaturity. You will not accept correction. And why? Because of your pride. You hate what you want to think Calvin was. If anything goes against that central thesis then you refuse to concede even when truth is at stake.

    I went through and showed you some of the false things in your article. A lie,is a lie,is a lie. You offered absolutely no documentation to verify the truthfulness of the "report."



    I think they would be embarrassed at that intemperance you demonstrate on the BB. I also think they would also invoke some church discipline on you.



    Review my previous post directed to you about your hatred toward me. You are guilty of murder according to the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.[/QUOTE]

    You are in dire need of reminders.
     
  18. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    ......................................................
     
    #58 saturneptune, May 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2013
  19. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    2
    ..................................................
     
    #59 saturneptune, May 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2013
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So I am "bareing false witness,huh? You still contend that the article you posted in post #40 was factual?! You still persist depite the lack of documentation and repeated requests to concede that it was bogus?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...