John Calvin on John 1:29

The problem is yours. God requires that we be reconciled to Him or we face eternal damnation. Some are reconciled to Him because they trust in Christ's suffering on their behalf. Others refuse to believe and receive eternal damnation.

 

There is no other way.

No, it isn't. And there is a means by which people can be reconciled to Christ, and that means is Christ's propitiatory sacrifice. There is a way that anyone who repents can be saved.

As I wrote in my reply to you earlier on page one of this thread:

 

Larry;

According to you on another thread you said;

There simply can be no means of reconciliation for all men if man has no other option because of what God knows.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

On this point - Calvin would have made a better Arminian.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The problem is yours. God requires that we be reconciled to Him or we face eternal damnation. Some are reconciled to Him because they trust in Christ's suffering on their behalf. Others refuse to believe and receive eternal damnation. </font>[/QUOTE]Wouldn't you consider "trust" and "refuse" to be "works"? You guys sure do with the word s"receive" and "believe".

 

No, those are gifts that God gives to His elect.

 

No, those are gifts that God gives to His elect. </font>[/QUOTE]So was Christ, and the abilty to accept Him. So how exactly do you receive a gift?

 

You have to be given the ability to receive it, and then you exercise that ability.

 

Ichtus -

All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God ergo, all men ~need~ reconciliation.

The "means" was the death of Christ. All men have the opportunity to know Christ.

HOWEVER - "my sheep hear my voice and respond" Only SOME of those men respond to the opportunity.

Want a less spiritual example?
I'm hosting a banquet. Actually a very nice banquet. We're offering free tickets to over 250 people, and then selling reduced price tickets to another 200 people. (The meal is valued at $25 a person, we're asking $10 a person for the reduced rate.) So - we've given the opportunity to attend to 450 people. Only 201 have taken us up on it. Of the 201, only 100 are people given the free ticket.

Now, in this particular banquet, the people invited really should attend as certain items will be given out at the banquet which will be needed the next day in a ceremony.

I set up the banquet hall, arranged the food, sent the invitations, printed the tickets, and offered them the opportunity. I had a pretty good idea before I mailed the tickets who would accept and who would turn us down because I'm pretty familiar with this group of people and know who likes banquets and who hates them.

Well, Christ has sent us invitations, and Christ knows who'll take Him up on thos invitations and who won't. That we don't accept the invitation doesn't mean we don't need to, any more than the people not attending our banquet don't need to eat a meal or pick up the materials that will be handed out at the banquet.

 

In your analogy, Christ's sacrifice was free to some, but others have to pay a reduced price for it? That doesn't make sense.

I like mine better, and it is more biblical. I'm hosting a banquet for 250 people. I send out the SAME invitation to all (it's free, come as you are, meals been paid). The night of the dinner arrives, and only 100 people come (for whatever reasons). THOSE are my "elect".

 

The atonement, as I have said many times. All who will believe are reconciled to God by the atonement. How did you not know that, given the number of times that I have said it, even in this thread? Is this more evidence that you don't really pay attention to what is being said? This becoming a common problem, Icthus, and I hate to point it out, but we keep repeating ourselves over and over again because you don't listen when we talk.

 

According to you on another thread you said;

There simply can be no means of reconciliation for all men if man has no other option because of what God knows.</font>[/QUOTE]Not if you you understand what "means" means. Again, failure to know basic definitions has caused this problem. There is a "means" by which I could sail the pacific ocean alone. I will never avail myself of that means. However, the means still exists.

In addition, paying attention to the context in which these statements were made would help to. In teh context of the second statement, you suffer the same problem unless you are an open theist, which I don't think you are.

 

But he does qualify it. Right in the sentence you quote. All is qualified by "who will believe".

It is limited (or particular or definite) in that it actully accomplishes the salvation of the elect, and it's primary purpose is to do that.

It is not limited (or particular or definite) in merit or value. It's merit or value is infinite. So any number of people at all could be saved by that one death if they believed. This is another purpose for the atonement--to provide a means by which anyone who believes will be saved, so that the invitation of the gospel can go out to all men indiscriminately.

 

As Russell pointed out, I did qualify it, and you quoted that qualification. The "all" who are reconciled are those "who will believe." It is just like John 3:16 and many other Calvinistic passages say ... Salvation is limited to those who believe.

And no Calvinist disagrees with that... which is what I have said many times already.

Is what possible? What do you mean by "it"? It is possible that everyone needs to be reconciled? Yes. It is possible for anyone to be reconciled without the death of Christ? No. Calvinists answer those questions as I just have. But your OP was about the need of reconciliation.

That is a non sequitur. God commands man to be perfect, and it is a serious command. But man cannot do it. You are confused about the whole issue, because you think it is a contradiction. There is no contradiction. You are merely confusing things because you won't believe what we tell you we believe.

Understand what? I understand what I believe, and I can see very clearly why you don't get it ... You don't listen to what we believe. I can't do anything about that, unfortunately.