John Calvin, Tell Me How You feel About Those That Are Lost..

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Oct 19, 2002.

  1. ForumChaplain

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    Calvinism often speaks of how glorious it is to be one of God’s efficaciously elected ones. One thing that troubles be about Calvin is an “apparent" lack of compassion for those that are lost. How can this be. They are fellow human beings. Some of them are our mothers and fathers; our sisters and brothers. Our children and our friends.

    In everyday life, we cannot tell the difference between them and another brother that is chosen. I would like to hear some Calvinists express their feelings for those that are not chosen. I know that neither you nor I can save them. But how can we pray, thank God that we are chosen and never bring up their fate before God. How can we go about praising God as tho they do not even exist.

    If you are a Calvinist, tell me about your love and compassion for those that are not chosen.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. KenH

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    I pray for those who are lost that they will be saved and I pray for Christians that their walk with God will be closer.

    Let me reassure you [​IMG] that any "apparent" lack of compassion on the part of Calvinists is only in your anti-Biblical Calvinism mind.

    Charles Haddon Spurgeon was a throughgoing Calvinist and no one can read his sermons and fail to see his love and concern for those who are lost. Here is an example -

    "But there is one more serious enquiry: and it is, "Will God grant my desire at last?" Yes, poor soul, verily he will. It is quite impossible that you should have desired God and should be lost, if you have desired him with the desire I have described. For I will suppose that you should go down into the chambers of the lost with the desire still in your spirit: when you entered within the gates you would have to say, "I desired mercy of God, and he would not give it me: I sought grace at the hands of Jesus, and he would not give it." You know what would be said at once. Satan would be so pleased. "Ah!" he would say, "here is a sinner that perished praying: God has not kept his promise, he said, 'Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved:' "and here is one that did it, and he is lost!" Ah! how they would howl for joy in hell! They would sing a blasphemous song against the Almighty God—that one poor desiring soul should be there! I tell you one thing: I have heard many wicked things in my life—I have heard many men swear and blaspheme God, till I have trembled, but there is one thing I never did hear a man say yet, and I think God would scarcely permit any man to perpetrate such a lie, I never heard even a drunken man say, "I sincerely sought God with full purpose of heart, and yet he has not heard me, and will not answer me, but has cast me away." I scarcely think it possible, although I know that men can be infinitely wicked, that any man could utter such an abominable falsehood as that. At any rate, I can say I never heard it; and I believe there are some of you who can say, "I have been young and now am old, yet have I never seen one penitent sinner who could say, in despair, I am not saved. I have sought God and he will not hear me, he has cast me away from his face and will not give me mercy;" and, I think, as long as you live you will not meet a case. Then why should you be the first? Why, poor penitent, shouldst thou be the first? Dost thou think thou art a chosen mark for all the arrows of the Almighty? Hath he set thee for a butt against which he will direct all the thunderbolts of his vengeance? Art thou to be the first instance in which mercy fails? Art thou to be the one who shall first out-do the infinity of love? Oh! say not so. Despair is mad; but for one instant gather up thy reason thou despairing one. Would God wish to see thee damned? Hath he not said, "As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, but would rather that he should turn to me and live." Do you think it would be a pleasure to the Almighty to have your blood? Oh! far be it from you to conceive it. Do you not think that he loves to pardon? Hath he not said himself he delighteth in mercy? And is it not written, "As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." What advantage would it be to God to destroy your souls? Would it not be more to his honour to save you? Ah, assuredly; because you would sing his praise in heaven, would you not? Yes, but recollect, the best argument I can use with you is this: Do you suppose that God would give his Son to die for sinners, and yet would not save sinners? It is written in the Scriptures, that "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners," and you are a sinner; you feel that you are a sinner; you know it. Then he came to save you. Only believe that. As a poor penitent you have a right to believe it. If you were a Pharisee you would not have that right; but as a penitent, humble, contrite soul, you have a right to believe in Jesus. The Pharisee has none for it is never written that he came to save the righteous; and if he believed he did he would believe a lie; but every man who is a sinner, every man who lays claim to that title, has a right also to believe that Christ died for him; and not only so but it is the truth. He came into the world for a certain purpose and what he came for he will do. He came into the world to save sinners, and now it is written "Whosoever believeth on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." When, last Friday, I had the honour of preaching to many thousand persons in the open air, such an assembly as I never dreamed of seeing and such a vast number as I could scarcely have fancied would have met for any religious purpose, I noticed a most singularly powerful echo, constantly taking up the last words of my sentences and sending them back, as if some great giant voice had spoken to confirm what I had said. When I had repeated the words, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," echo said, "Saved!" and when I proceeded, "He that believeth not shall be damned," I heard the echo gently say "Damned!" Methinks this morning I hear that echo: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" and the saints above cry, "Saved!" Hark! how they sing before the throne! Hark! how your glorified parents and your immortalized relatives, cry, "Saved!" Hear ye not the echo, as it echoes from the blue sky of heavens—"Saved!" And, oh! doleful thought, when I utter those words, "He that believeth not shall be damned," there comes up that dread word—"Damned!" from the place where there are "hollow groans, and sullen moans, and shrieks of tortured ghosts." God grant that you may never know what it is to be damned! God give you to believe now; for, "to-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."" - from Charles Spurgeon's sermone entitled "The Desire of the Soul in Spiritual Darkness"
     
  3. ForumChaplain

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    Ken: You missed my point.
    Would you give this love letter to your wife with a dozen roses for valentines day.

    I love Spurgie, but do you have anything to say? Is this waht you call compassion. Too distant and clinical for me.

    Give it another try. Remember, you love these lost souls....

    Why do you pray for them, the bible says that we should not pray for the dead. What do you expect your prayers to change. They are lost, gone, kaput. Your prayers can not bring them back.

    Now let me see calvinistic compassion and empathy in action here..

    [ October 19, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    The reason why some Calvinists don't have any compassion is because they believe that the Lord doesn't have any for the lost either. In fact, some say that all things are to the praise of His glory, even the damned. Other believe that God is through His sovereignty, demonstrating His vindictive nature on the lost. There are a myriad of ideas that people come up with to cement the gapping theological holes.

    The most rediculous of people are those who believe that God has predestinated the saved and the lost, and yet continue to pray for the lost. Hey, if He dains not to save them it is an eternally, sealed up fact. Deep down they know this is not true otherwise they would not even waste their time praying for the unelected, poor souls.
     
  5. KenH

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    Not so. Your "points" are have been answered in the threads of this forum and after they have been answered and refuted, you cry "You missed my point" because you refuse to accept honest answers and then try to change your point so that your opposition have to try to hit a moving target.

    Neat trick. [​IMG] But it just won't work with sincere inquirers who may read these threads.
     
  6. shilo

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    Chappie forgive me for getting off the subject for a second..but Ken quoted Spurgeon as having much love for he lost..that i won't deny..however Ken's number one man spurgeon did the unthinkable..he actually invited people to accept Christ.. In his "For whom did christ die"? (pilgrim publications,) pg 503 he says

    "Are you a sinner? that felt, that known, that professed, you are now INVITED to believe that Jesus died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ"

    If you didn't know any better you'd think Spurgeon was an Arminian! LOL

    Calvinist are SO inconsistant..they just have a time of it don't they??

    However about the "Love" the Real Calvinist have for the lost..

    "Should Sovereign grace preachers use the Invitation system? I believe not.. ( interesting spurgeon didn't agree) As I see it, grace preachers calling on sinners to walk and aisle to accept Christ are Contradicting there theology with Arminian practice"( see spurgeon) (E.R. Roberts "the public invitation" The berea Baptist Banner, april 5, 1988. pp1,8

    When praying for salvation for others Pink says

    "when praying for the salvation of others, it should always be with the proviso..If they be thine elect" (Pink, Election pg 179)

    So according to Pink if your not the elect he isn't praying for your salvation..you don't warrent prayer..hmm..real love there
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    Sorry Chappie your points have been rehashed and answered sufficently time and time again. It's not when are we going to get your point?... When are you going to understand our biblical one?... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    We pray because God has elected people. When you pray, you are asking God to do the thing that you believe he doesn't do, namely, to intervene in the free will of man. I understand why we pray ... we believe that God has something to do with it. I don't understand why you pray. That is asking God to be partial to those who are "lucky" enough to know you and have you pray for them. What about those who aren't that lucky?? Does God not care about them too??

    As for Shilo's comments about invitations, why do you think that invitations are inconsistent for Calvinists?? Christ used them, Paul used them; Peter used them. Why wouldn't modern day Calvinists use them?? After all we are following in good footsteps. However, as for the modern invitations system, Spurgeon actually did not use it. He had an inquiry room. There is nothing uncalvinistic about a invitation to someone to be saved ... unless you don't understand Calvinism and the gospel.
     
  9. ForumChaplain

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    Not so. Your "points" are have been answered in the threads of this forum and after they have been answered and refuted, you cry "You missed my point" because you refuse to accept honest answers and then try to change your point so that your opposition have to try to hit a moving target.

    Neat trick. [​IMG] But it just won't work with sincere inquirers who may read these threads.
    </font>[/QUOTE]It is not a trick, either you are able to demonstrate some compassion, or you can not.

    Yet i can see that you are just too smart for me.

    Unless you guys begin to show some love, you'll be surprised what people are gonna think.

    Well, we thank you anyway brother Ken.

    [ October 20, 2002, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  10. ForumChaplain

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    Hello brother Glen:
    I can see that you have tired of this subject, sorry I was not around when you originaly hashed it out.

    If you are tired of this subjct, why do you take the time to tell people just how tired you are. Perhaps you have just spent too much time on the board.

    Perhaps a pause that refreshes is in order...

    Nothing new under the sun though. You could be in for some serious boredom. Sorry bout that....

    How about it, any Calvinist out there willing to take the time to speak a few kind words of love for our lost mothers and father, sisters and brothers, or perhaps just a family member or a friend. They are people too..

    Brother Glen, I get your point, that's the reason that I started this thread.

    Nevertheless, thank you Brother Glen for a portion of your time...

    May God Bless.

    [ October 20, 2002, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  11. Helen

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    Chappie, this is almost the point that showed me how false Calvinism was. Only the way it occurred to me, and this is another thing I have never heard them answer, is "Can a mother love her child more than God loves that child?"

    For you and me, the answer would always be "Never! Impossible!"

    But for a Calvinist, the answer has to be yes, that it is possible if the child is not one of the elect.

    And that is where my first major clue crept in when I spent two years reading the Bible with an eye soley for the Calvinist question.

    The next thing I did -- and I had to quit before I even got through Genesis -- was mark in the margins of an inexpensive Bible where man had acted and THEN God had reacted. Not because He must do it that way, but because God Himself has chosen that way.

    There were too many times. My margins were getting too crowded with examples. My point made to myself, I quit and just kept reading.

    [ October 20, 2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  12. ForumChaplain

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    Excellant point Pastor Larry.
    But here I am not interested in theology. How do you feel concerning those that are not the elect. Do you have compassion, even empathy for them. Have you ever thought of yourself in their position.

    Do you ever wish that God loved them as he loves the elect.

    We are not talking about theology here, we are talking about loving others as you love yourself. Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. Loving your enemies.

    PS. Sidebar:
    It is God's intervention in our free will that makes it free. We are not free without Christ's offer of salvation.

    I eagerly await your response. It's all about love, not theology.
     
  13. ForumChaplain

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    Brother Ken:
    What's an anti-biblical Calvinism mind. Do you consider Calvinism to be un-biblical. I am hurt that you would speak of Calvinist faith in this manner.

    Or, is this an attempt to insult me that perhaps has backfired just a tad.

    Anyway, may God continue to bless and keep you...

    [ October 20, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  14. ForumChaplain

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    How about it ladies and Gentlemen, we are talking about the elect's love for the un-elected. Any takers. Can we show them some love or not....

    [ October 20, 2002, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  15. shilo

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    Helen, That is an excellent point!

    even if these Calvinist won't answer your question, Calvin himself surely did when He said

    "For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is forordained to some, ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR OTHERS"

    Does God Eternally damn those whom he has love for?
     
  16. tyndale1946

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    Chappie said:
    That is the point exactly they are chosen by God and you, I and nobody else had anything to do with it. Matthew 1: 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    It specifically states Jesus shall save his people from their sins. The scriptures also state he will not lose a one. Brethren are you calling God UNFAIR because he did not save the whole Adamic race of mankind when he could have but that was not his plan? Blame him for putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, without the tree man would never have sinned. Wait a minute that's exactly what happened... The blame game of Genesis that is still going on today!

    Who are we to question the purpose and plan of God? If they are lost they are lost because they were not given to the Son to save by the Father. All the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    All the Father giveth the Son he should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day. Also none is able to pluck them out of his hand because the Father is greater than all and no one is able to pluck them out of the Fathers hand.

    Since God will not lose a one tell me according to scripture who is lost? Why do we question God on who he saved and who he didn't? I have stated on thread after thread and you can recheck them if you like that God will save ALL his blood bought children. That is what the Bible teaches... That is what I believe... That is what my church believes... That is what the Primitive Baptist brethren believe!... And if one of his tokens of affection is ever lost Christ has failed and the promises of God are a lie!... The promises of God are sure having this seal the Lord knoweth them that are his and let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from inquity... Brother Glen
     
  17. shilo

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    You have asked a great question..I wonder what you would think of these quotes:

    "If election guarantees the salvation of all that are predestined to be saved, why should we be bothered with evengelism, personal or missionary? What possible difference can it make whether we speak to men or not" (custance pp277)

    "we do not win many souls. A few of our kind of Churches win a soul now and then, but most of us do very, very little of this. we do not have a real and continuing and successful visitation program. Our preachers are not soul winning men. we do not have soul winning menbers. We do not preach much on soul winning.

    We rarely preach on it as a duty, and we almost never give any instructions on why and how to win souls. We do not really work at winning souls in our churches. We make almost no effort at winning souls in the conclusion of our sermons or in our invitations at the close of our sermons" (Joseph M.Wilson "soul winning" The Baptist examiner, Feb.15 1992")

    does this show the Love?? Chappie what do you think?? :confused:
     
  18. shilo

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    Glen it certainly does..BUT who are His People?? Perhaps you had better reread Matthew again.

    "Where is he that is Born King of the JEWS"

    Who are his people that he came to Glen?? Let me help you..Not the Calvinist gentile..it is the JEW.. or are you and the rest of the Calvinist Jews but just forgot to say so..
     
  19. tyndale1946

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    Shilo let me pose a question for you when did God put you in the salvation business?... The Lord will save all his people without anyones help. Now feeding those that are already his children that is another story. There are many hungry for gospel truths!

    You want to see his people... Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb... Is anyone ever lost to God?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  20. shilo

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    He put me in the salvation buisness when I was saved. after I was saved i was told to

    "Go out and preach the gospel to every creature"Mk. 16:20

    I guess Paul didn't know he was supposed to just sit back and do nothing..

    Oh maybe you missed this verse Glen
    "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some"

    look at that Paul is taking credit for saving people!! Can the Calvinist handle this one..we shall soon see.

    First you quoted Matthew to start off with. In matthew The gentiles didn't have the ooportunity to be saved. as God Hadn't turned to the gentiles yet and hadn't been dealing at all with them. Jesus First went to the Jew..who are his elect chosen people. (Isa.45:4 ISRAEL mine elect)

    not to mention that the apostles were told not to go to the gentiles but to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel:

    "these twelve Jesus sent fourth, and commanded them saying, Go not in the way of the Gentils, and into any city of the samaritans enter ye not:

    "But go rather to the Lost sheep of Israel."mt. 10:5,6)

    Perhaps you would like to rightly divide your Bible..that way you won't be confussed next time as to whom Jesus had come to when the scripture says he shall save "his People" from their sins

    Oh another note..you aren't "HIS" people UNTIL you are saved..
     

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