John Mac Aurthur on "Purpose Driven Life"

I would not say it quite that way. We are not called to do good works but rather to be like Christ. In being like Christ we will do good works. According to James, good works are the proof of our faith.

 

Whenever we commit sin we live like the devil, to an extent. All one has to do is look at Lot's life in the OT. His life was hardly that of someone deemed godly and righteous...yet he was. He knew the promise given to Abraham, and how he was justified, and he also was justified in the same manner, by grace through faith.

 

Wow...so you don't think Warren is saved? Why not expound on what you read on the OP that leads you to believe Rich Warren is accursed?

 

You raised the question about Warrens salvation you answer it! As for those who preach another Gospel I simply quoted Paul. Warren thinks we can try Jesus Christ, I assume he means Salvation, for 6o days and if we don't like it we can cast it aside. That is an exceptionally low view of both the Gospel and the sacrificial Death of Jesus Christ.

 

I raised the question to you...strange you won't answer it. You called him accursed based on what you "assume" about his doctrine. It would help to actually quit assuming, and gain factual knowledge on an issue before presenting yourself as sounding quite silly.

Strange as it may be, RW's message doesn't frustrate grace in the same way Lordship Salvation does. It can be argued, then, MacArthur is "accursed" based on incorrect doctrine.

 

Anyone who states we can try Christianity for 60 days and then cast it aside if we don't like it is propagating a false Gospel. That is a fact. If you don't agree, tough!

Furthermore, if Jesus Christ is not your Lord He is not your Savior. That is a fact and it doesn't frustrate Grace, it magnifies Grace. If you don't agree, tough!

OldRegular
__________________

 

Full of grace, aren't you

Provide a link where Warren says anything you claim, or retract it. I've never seen him say what you state.

MacArthur has an extra-biblical view of repentance, so of course he is going to disagree with Warren. Fact is, HIS Gospel is inadequate. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, and MacArthur separates them into two separate entitities alltogether. When you put your faith in Christ YOU HAVE REPENTED!!

We don't "make" Christ Lord of anything...He is already. You don't give up sin in order for Him to be Lord...HE IS LORD!!! That is a message that frustrates grace. If you don't agree,...

 

"If Jesus Christ is not your Lord...."
That is a wide open statement, open to many interpretations. What exactly do you mean by it? Everyone of us call upon the "name of the Lord," when we come to Christ, thus making Christ the Lord of our life, in essence. But as infants, we need to grow to "perfection" as Paul taught, the word meaning completion, or maturity "in the faith." No person is automatically born again a "perfect Christian" with Christ as Lord of every area of their lives. That is a false gospel and false theology.
Jesus said to His disciples:
"Follow me and "I will make you fishers of men."
They had to learn. They were not fishers of men as soon as they recognized Christ as Messiah. There were many things that they had to learn first. They even doubted the resurrection when it happened.

I would suggest to you, that Christ is not Lord of every area of your life even now.

 

We are saved by grace and not by works, we all agree. The question seems to be after one is saved is it not expected to see a change in a persons life and they show that change by their works? If someone has no evidence of change should it not be a warning to that person to examine themselves?

 

I guess "works" need to be defined, and examined. I'm going through Men's Fraternity at our church, and the testimony of Dr. Lewis is similar to that of many. He came to Christ in college, and immediately there was no change outwardly, but he knew the outward things were now different inwardly. Becoming a believer doesn't put us on the fast pace to becoming the vessel of honor. When we come to Christ, the "Potter" just begins beating, cutting away and molding the clay.

 

This is the root of the issue. Lordship Salvation affirms what Jesus said: any tree that does not bear good fruit, is cut down and thrown into the fire (hell). Jesus says to those people "I NEVER at NO TIME knew you"...

Cheap grace proponents, assert that what Jesus REALLY meant, is that "sometimes a person bears fruit when they are saved" and sometimes they do not. Even Charles Ryrie (one of the better on the opposite side of the aisle), asserts that there are instances when a real Christian does not bear fruit.

Yet that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said they WILL bear fruit. Additionally, Jesus said...

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?

This is about as plain as it can get. People deny it because they don't like it. But the fact is, Jesus is stating the measure of saving faith, is the fruit it produces. He plainly states here, the refusal to follow, results in a "forfeiture of soul", not "a non productive Christian life". The person that refuses to follow Christ, LACKS saving faith.

Despite the fact that the opposition tries to paint it otherwise, this is the real crux of the matter. They wish to allow people to be seen as within the body of Christ, who are unashamedly and openly in rebellion to Him, in DIRECT contradiction of God's word.

 

What fruit did the thief on the cross produce after his faith in Christ? I mean, if there is NO fruit, the tree is discarded, right?

Why do calvinists find the need for slurs and ad hominems? Is this one of the "fruits" you are talking about?
Christians develop in the same way infants do. That is why this analogy is used. You have someone going from birth to age 30 instantly.

Unregenerate people don't know what it means to take up their crosses and follow Him. Clearly this is speaking to believers (disciples)...I would suggest a study of your use of "soul" here. It's not the immortal soul being spoken of.

People deny it because it's wrong.

I will again point you in the direction of your use of soul (psuche)

Kinda liked being carried out of Sodom and Gamorrah kicking and screaming, huh? That's some righteous "fruit" for you!

 

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;



Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.



Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



I think verse ten is the interesting part of these verses. It is an amazing and humbling thought. God has already prepared good works we are to do. We were created in Christ Jesus for actual specific good works God intends for us to do. What a gift, what a responsibility!

 

Luk 23:40 But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are in the same condemnation.
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly so, for we receive the due reward of our deeds, but this Man has done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.

#1 He rebuked evil.
#2 He confessed Jesus as his Master.
#3 He admitted his own wrong doing.

No slur. What slur are you speaking of? The Bible describes the gospel as having life transforming power; a POWERFUL supernatural act; not some cheap, decisional "mantra".

You are making the same mistake that the Galatians made: wanting sanctification to be a result of human decision and effort, instead of a supernatural act of God. Faith, including the faith to follow Christ, is a blessed gift, not some "mustered up" work that we bring about, through effort of our pitiful little mind.

As I have already shown, Jesus is referring to their eternal destiny. Those who do not take up their cross and follow Him, are endanger of Hell: they lack saving faith.

Such as here:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Soul: life force, breath: your eternity. Jesus is saying those who lack the faith to take up their cross, and danger of losing their soul in Hell.

Kinda like Paul "didn't know what it meant" to take up His cross? Those truly called by God are SHOWN what it means to take up their cross.

 

No fruit after turning to Christ. Rebuking someone is not fruit.

The same kind of slur you provided here.

And as I have already shown...an impossibility apart from faith in Christ!

There is no mention of taking up your cross in Matt. 10

Correct...those who have been regenerated.

A common greeting is an act of righteousness

Not only is bravery not righteousness, it's wrong. He had nothing to fear from the people since he was living just like them.

Yes, I have "actually studied this passage: This is eisegesis at it's best (or worst). They were "lingering" along with him. So much for training up a child in the way they should go! Have you ever "actually studied" what it meant for the angels to "laid hold upon their hands"?

I've heard many an unrighteous person plead for others. You are starting to grasp at straws here!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461685,00.html

Now you do the same.

Rather than Warren's or MacArthur's gospel I prefer that taught in the Bible.

Romans 1:15-18
15. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 

Thanks for the link. I'm sorry you missed the obvious metaphor of Christ being the Gift, Christmas gifts, and return periods for those gifts following. He was clearly being tongue-in-cheek...but to Rick Warren haters, useful ammo in bringing down a servant of God. Bravo!

BTW, I have heard many a calvinist preacher say along the lines of "if you don't believe in God, just tell Him that. Ask Him to make Himself real if He is real". This sounds not too different than that, "daring" the lost to acknowledge God.

 

I would suggest to you that you are correct. True Believers sin and Jesus is not the Author of sin.

I would suggest to you that too many children in infancy trot, are pushed, or pulled down the aisle at an age where they have no ides what is happening other than they are told they love Jesus.


Dagg in his Manual of Theology [pages 277ff] speaks about Salvation much better than I can:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

1Cr 7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but {what matters is} the keeping of the commandments of God.

The Bible says keeping Gods commandments is what matters, but if a preacher says keeping them matters he is preaching a works based salvation?