John Mac Aurthur on "Purpose Driven Life"

Thanks. That clears up some things.
In regards to the things that you posted, what happens when a "true believer" backslides?" It seems as if there is no room left in this theology for a believer who strays for a temporary period of time, and then comes back to the Lord.

Jesus left the 99 to go after the one sheep (still a sheep) that had gone astray.
Lot went astray, and remained justified.
Abraham lied about his wife twice (Genesis 12 and 20), and remained justified.
Peter denied the Lord three times, and never lost his salvation.
Paul, later, had to rebuke Peter for his hypocrisy. Once again he had gone astray.

There are many examples in the Bible where even the greatest of leaders have gone astray, backslid for a period for a period time. How does you theology account for those people and where does it draw the line?

 

For salation? Yes it is a works based salvation.

 

Show me the quote where John MacArthur says that keeping the commandments are required for salvation.

 

I am not sure what you mean by this theology. Otherwise I refer to my initial statement: True Believers sin and Jesus is not the Author of sin.

I would remind you of Scripture from John 6:

37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

1 John 1
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I say again: I am not sure what you mean by this theology.

 

Oh. I was kind of under the impression that rebuking evil was a righteous thing to do. I guess the scriptures are wrong...

Luk 17:3 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him

No slur. Will the gospel powerfully change or not? Is being saved all that is required, as LS teaches? According to the Bible.

Telling someone to deny themselves and take up their cross, is a biblical invitation to faith. Telling someone to "accept Jesus" is not.

Nope, just what it means to lose your "Psuche" as spoken of in the verse that does. The word "psuche" refers to the life that you have, which can not be taken by men: i.e. you immortal destiny. When Jesus says that the penalty for not taking up your cross, is "losing you 'psuche'" He is referring to that person's soul being consigned to Hell. That is obvious from the text.

WILL or MAY?

Bowing and putting your face on the ground, is not a standard greeting: it is a sign of worship.

Not according to them:

"This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them."

Lot put himself in GREAT danger to protect his guests. This is not the act of a wicked man.

PLUS: Scripture says just being around them tormented him. It says he was "righteous". I will believe what scripture says: he was a righteous man, who made some mistakes.

Actually, you are completely wrong. If you notice, Lot goes and pleads with his family, his son in laws, to leave. They refuse: Lot lingers. Why? Because his daughters were staying with them.

Why is it that you argue with scripture?

Not grasping at straws. The Bible says Lot was righteous: I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

#1 Tell me, why does Jesus tell those to depart from Him who say to Him "Lord Lord"?

#2 What is it that the Bible says COMPLETES faith?

#3 Complete this sentence: Faith that does not have works is _______.

#4 Pick the correct sentence:

A) Jesus said "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire"

B) Jesus said "Some of the trees that do not bear good fruits are thrown into the fire"

1Jn 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

 

I believe in eternal security. By "this theology" I thought that I was reading something that sounded like MacArthur's "Lordship Salvation."
It is that theology that I have seen posted here before: "Except you forsake all that you have and follow me you cannot be my disciple (be saved)," that I cannot agree with. Is this what was being propagated?

 

Rebuking a person is one thing but rebuking Satan is quite another. The last time I saw a person rebuke Satan he eventually became Satan's handiwork. I am told that today there is no evidence that he is a Christian. He was KJVO and proud of it. He was laughing stock for non-Christians because it appeared that he was being manipulated by his parents and church.

 

Casual observation

Casual observation of the posts on this board thread. Some people post statements and back it up with Scripture. Others just make statements.

Guess which posts have more credibility?

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths -Proverbs 3:5-6

 

A statement backed with Scripture eisegeted or pulled from context has no credibility.

"I have hidden Your Word in my heart that I might not sin against You".

 

Hey...

It's been my experience that MOST churches require you follow some law. Even the Baptist... drinking anyone? 10% tithe? Sunday worship? God knows I'm not MacArthur's biggest fan (Mr. "Grace to You"...sure doesn't seem to show much himself), but you don't have to be necessarily preaching the 10 commandments, to be pushing legalism.

My opinion... Warren is very legalistic. He couches it...and tries to hide it... but his method is very much a form of legalism. I've read his church covenant... and it doesn't pass the Grace test.

Sorry guy... that's just how I see it.

Hey... the early church had the same argument over law and grace... I thought they pretty much settled it with Acts 15:20... but most churches seem to bypass this little nugget of information.


Steve

 

You mean to become a member of Saddleback? I'm not sure legalism is the right word to use when requiring a potential member to do certain things for membership. That's apples and oranges when dealing with works for salvation.

 

Then we're dealing with a clubhouse... not a church.

.... and then we've got dues... business meetings...

no thanks.

 

Study the following!

Matthew 16:24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 10:38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:23. And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luke 9:24. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 14:27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Hebrew 11:24. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
Hebrew 11:25. Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hebrwe 11:26. Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Romans 3:10-17
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

Study the following:

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

If what you posted is what you believe about salvation then it is wrong. Jesus said that to his disciples. Mat.16:24 is about discipleship not salvation. Jesus spoke of salvation in Scripture as John 3:3,16,18,36; 5:24.
Those are the verses that speak of salvation; not the verses that you posted.
The verses that you posted speak of discipleship--something different.

If you believe Mat.16:24ff. speak about salvation, then it is doubtful that there was anyone, or very very few, in the Corinthian church, according to your theology that would have been saved. Please carefully examine the first epistle written to that church in the light of the verses you quoted.

 

First, let me say that the passage from Romans was a incorrectly posted. I had another thread in mind when I posted it here.

Apparently we have a different view of MacArthur and Lordship Salvation. I have stated that if Jesus Christ is not your Lord He is not your Savior. I agree that the passages I posted are generally about discipleship. If we are truly saved then we will be disciples of Jesus Christ. That is my understanding of MacArthur's doctrine. I have read nothing that he has written that leads me to believe otherwise. Perhaps you have.

 

I wonder what MacArthur would say about 1 Cor 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. "

 

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Were these believers (addressed as brethren), that are carnal, are only able to be fed milk, even though by now they should be eating meat, and meet together in an assembly full of strife and divisions, true believers. Are they disciples? It seems straightforward to me that Christ is not Lord of every area of their lives, though they may have accepted him as Lord and Saviour of their lives. They have not made him Lord of all their lives. There are many areas in their lives where Christ is not Lord. If Christ was Lord these believers would be eating the meat of God's Word, and would not be needing such harsh rebuke by Paul.

The theology that you put forward (per MaCarthur) makes no sense in the light of Scripture.

 

I did not put forward any theology per MacArthur. I doubt that MacArthur teaches that one must live a sinless life in order to be saved even though Jesus Christ did say: Matthew 5:48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If perfection of the believer were assured then the Apostle John would not have found it necessary to write fellow believers, as follows:

1 John 1:6-10; 2:1
6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

However, the Apostle also wrote:

1 John 2:
3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

I believe these passages show that if Jesus Christ is our Savior He is also our Lord.

 

I also agree with OldRegular. If we believe that we must accept Jesus as our Lord for salvation, then it logically follows that we are to become His disciples. He's your Lord, you follow Him, that is being a disciple.

Therefore, if those scripture passes are for disciples, then they are also for salvation.

All of us our imperfect disciples. Several of the 12 Disciples also had trouble. We need to get on our knees and pray to Jesus our Lord to make us better disciples.

Day-by-day, minute-by-minute make us more like Jesus our Lord.

 

Is every believer (one who is truly saved) a disciple?
I don't believe so. In the light of 1Cor.3:1-5, how can it be true. Disciples would be able to be feed on meat, would not be called carnal and divisive. These are not the marks of a disciple, but Paul refers to them as brethren, that is, believers, nevertheless.
Not every believer is a disciple.
Why did Jesus say in Mat.4:11, to those that were already believers:
Come and follow me, and I will make you fishers (disciples) of men.