John MacArthur and Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Dec 30, 2007.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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  2. Grasshopper

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  3. pinoybaptist

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    Lou:

    With all due respects to you, this is getting to be ridiculous.
    Here we are trying to disprove fellow Christians and their theologies and doctrines.
    I think the main issues of separation, or main bones of contention, should be on how each other view the person of Christ, the work of Christ, the Deity and Humanity of Christ, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Blood of Christ, and such essentials of the Faith, and therein base our separation from each other, HERE ON EARTH.
    I say here on earth, because there is not one of your cited scholars, or mine, or others on this board, or any other board, who can say with all honesty and surety, that THEIRS (and of course, ours) is "gotten right" all the way.
    John Mc'Arthur, John Piper, Rc Sproul, Spurgeon, Newton, Isaac Watts, John Gill, or any Old or New Calvinist does not have it all right.
    Neither do any of my people, the Primitive Baptists, have it all pat and right to the t.
    Same thing goes for you, Chuck Swindoll, Arminius, Lawrence Welkins, Scoffield, and the others.
    We can't go chasing after one another like posses hot on the trail of outlaws.
    Paul didn't, as far as I can understand.
    He spoke out against abusiveness and dictatorship of brethren like Alexander the coppersmith and the likes, true, but above all he spoke out against gnosticsm which was what was creeping into the church.
    Calvinism or Lordship Salvation or non-Lordship salvation is hardly comparable to gnosticism.
    Makes me wonder why you would like to see Mc'Arthur condemned by others in Christendom.
    Same way it makes me wonder why somebody here seems to have made it his personal mission to portray Calvinists as inept, stupid, corrupt, devil's armies.
     
  4. skypair

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    "All due respect" but I think we ALL need to know what the "Gospel" is, was, and how God reveals Himself in the context of time.

    You may think this is irrelevant -- but then Calvies only know one covenant and then they can't even find it once in the Bible!

    pinoy -- the gospel is revelation. Dispensation, too, is God's revelation of Himself in time. Pls consider that every age isn't "Christian." Believers, yes -- Christians, no.

    skypair
     
    #4 skypair, Dec 31, 2007
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  5. pinoybaptist

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    skypair:

    as usual, hieroglyphics (sp?) will probably be easier to study and to understand than your statements.
    you say and have said a lot of things about Calvinists and Calvinism that the really honest peruser can not but say that you have venom in you towards them.
    Until you learn to be more Christian to your Calvinist brethren, I do not wish to be bothered by your nightmarish assertions.
    May this coming New Year find you a better Christian.
    Goodbye.
     
  6. skypair

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    Ha-Ha! :laugh: God's still growing me! I'm much better about not attacking Calvinists than when I first got here.

    On the other hand, there are some "fragile spirits" here who think they are under personal attack when it is even suggested that they could be wrong. Calvinism is a system of human-inspired theology attempting to explain the Bible. Therefore, it uses the Bible to create its tenets.

    But there are 2 problems: 1) Systems of theology are "models" created through trial and error. Yeah, Catholicism was a flawed model. But when the errors in Calvinism become obvious, the proponents themselves often say, "Well that wasn't critical to the whole" and become 4 pointers or 3 pointers. They never consider that the whole system was fitted together with carefully defined terms and one defective part destroys the whole "system." And the fact that there are weaknesses ought to say loud and clear, "We need a NEW model."

    2) God doesn't need man to build more elaborate religions again (like Judaism became in the OT). He doesn't need man "carving little franchises"* out of His word under which they alone know the truth and are saved to the exclusion of those who disagree. Tha gospel is pretty simple -- for simple folks like me!

    Anyway, don't take it personally. These remarks are not directed at you.

    skypair


    * I agree all denoms do this -- even SBC with their obsession with water baptism for membership.
     
    #6 skypair, Jan 1, 2008
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  7. Lou Martuneac

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    I appreciate your concern. My concern is not so much with Calvinism, although I reject all 5 points and the extra-biblical regeneration before faith that flows from it.

    My greatest concern is over the works based, non-saving Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel that frustrates grace. The eternal destiny of souls are at stake and LS is a message that frustrates the saving grace of God.

    Personalities are not the issue that pro-LS defenders often try to turn the LS debates in to. BTW, I speak in very gracious, charitable tones about JM in my book, where I can, but not about his teaching the egregious errors of LS.

    MacArthur happens to be the best known, most prolific and outspoken (voice and print) apologist for LS. His popularity alone gives some the false initial appearance of LS being right and biblical, which it is not.

    In my book I quote several pro-LS writers, JM by far most often because he has the most to say.


    LM
     
  8. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    If you click on one of the links in this article you come to:

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/sermon.htm

    This is what makes me turn my back on Dispensationalism, the claim that parts of the Bible do not apply to us today. In this case, the author is saying that the sermon on the mount is to be ignored by modern day Christians. I've seen more radical statements which claim that none of the four gospels which contain the words of Christ while He was on earth apply to us. This is not the gospel message but a severe distortion of it.
     
  9. webdog

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    Do you keep the sabbath? Still do animal sacrifices?
     
  10. JustChristian

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    Answering your question, I believe in the first and second covenants. Do you accept the words of Jesus Christ Himself as having meaning for your life?
     
    #10 JustChristian, Jan 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2008
  11. canadyjd

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    Once again, Lou Martuneac is making baseless allegations against John MacArthur. At this point, everyone should consider these allegations to be an intentional and malicious smear of J.Mac’s character.

    All anyone has to do is look at what MacArthur posts on his website to find out what he believes and teaches.

    When you go there, you will find that Lou Martuneac’s allegations are easily demonstrated to be false by comparing what he accuses MacArthur of believing and teaching with what J.Mac actually believes and teaches.


    This is a sermon explaining regeneration from MacArthur’s view. http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/90-297

    It’s long, but it’s a good read. You will clearly see how Lou Martuneac has misrepresented MacArthur. For example, you will find that MacArthur goes into great pains to demonstrate from scripture that regeneration precedes faith. Of course, you don't have to agree with him. But to claim his position is "extra-biblical" is pure nonsense. He bases every doctrine on scripture.

    This is from MacArthur’s doctrinal statement, concerning salvation.
    http://www.gty.org/MeetGTY/DoctrinalStatement
    Notice how MacArthur affirms that salvation is completely a work of God, and that men can do nothing to earn their salvation.


    For Lou Martuneac to claim John MacArthur teaches a "works-based" salvation that frustrates grace is laughable on it's face.


    This is from MacArthur’s statement on Lordship Salvation. He calls these “fundamentals” of evangelical teaching.

    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2439


    Again, you can clearly see that MacArthur rejects the notion of "pre-conditions" for salvation, or that anyone can earn their salvation.

    In truth, MacArthur holds a more extensive view of God's grace than Lou Martuneac, since he believes that even regeneration and faith are gifts of God's grace. (he supports these statements with scripture as well)

    Lou Martuneac is swimming in an ocean of intellectual dishonesty. I am shining the light of truth on his outrageous smear of John MacArthur.

    Lou Martuneac, I urge you to swim out of your ocean of intellectual dishonesty toward the light of truth. When you reach the shores of intellectual honesty, illuminated by the light of God's Word, your only response can be to repent of your intentional smear of John MacArthur and then write a book praising MacArthur's insights into scripture.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #11 canadyjd, Jan 5, 2008
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  12. Lou Martuneac

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    Back to the Subject

    Folks:

    Please be reminded that canadyjd has acknowledged never having read any one of JM's four major works on Lordship Salvation.

    He seems to think that the use of common orthodox biblical terminology guarantees orthodox, biblical definitions and interpretation. If that were the case we could find brief excerpts from many of the better known cults, (RCC & Mormonism for example) and without digging more deeply into how they define and interpret the same words we read in the Bible we'd probably deem them biblicists.

    BTW, if you read his posts, such as the one above, watch for his Calvinistic presuppositions sprinkled in.

    IMO, Canadyjd has allowed his emotions and personal feelings toward JM to get the better of him. I pay no attention to what appear to be his increasingly hysterical reactions to genuine areas of concern with the teachings of John MacArthur.

    Now, to refocus the thread to its original intent. We are looking at an article developed by George Zeller that discusses John MacArthur & Dispensationalism.


    LM
     
  13. Rippon

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    Redeem The Time Lou

     
  14. J.D.

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    Right, and you are completely objective. No presuppositions. Yeh, I believe that. :laugh:
     
  15. Lou Martuneac

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    1) Yes, JM is widely known and has been for quite a few years.

    2) JM has been solid in much of his exposition of Scripture. I have often posted that he has done great work on areas such as the Charismatic, Church Growth and Emergent Church movements. On the Gospel, however, he has checked out on Scripture. He has adopted and promoted a system that demands from lost men an upfront commitment to an obedient, godly life style in exchange for the gift of eternal life.

    3) Because of his being widely known, sound on many other doctrines, most do not suspect and/or do not want to believe that JM just might be wrong on the Gospel. That is why the emotions and passions run high, with people like canadyjd, when JM's Lordship interpretation of the Gospel comes under scrutiny.

    Lordship Salvation, as it is taught by John MacArthur (Walter Chantry, John Stott, etc.), is a system that confuses, clouds and complicates the Gospel. LS is a non-saving message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:20).


    LM
     
  16. canadyjd

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    Let's take a look at Gal. 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."

    Looks like John MacArthur is telling us the same thing as the Apostle Paul concerning Lordship Salvation. "I have been crucified with Christ; It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God..."

    "No longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..." That sounds like Paul is saying Jesus is the Lord of his life.

    Lou Martuneac's intellectual dishonesty knows no limits. The very verses of scripture he quotes to support his smear of MacArthur, actually supports John MacArthur's teachings on Lordship Salvation.

    What is clear is that Lou Martuneac is shameless in his smear of John MacArthur. Consider this statement from Lou Martuneac concerning MacArthur:
    This, in spite of John MacArthur's clear and repeated teaching to the contrary:Once again, from MacArthur's website:
    #4 "God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation"

    I choose to ignore Lou Martuneac's personal attacks on me and my motivations. He cannot answer MacArthur's clear and biblical presentation of doctrine, so he tries to change the subject to me. Another tactic of an intellectually dishonest person.

    However, the light of truth keeps shining brighter. The more Lou Martuneac posts, the more his intellectual dishonesty is put on display for all to see.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #16 canadyjd, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  17. Lou Martuneac

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    In my previous comment I wrote,
    The passage I referenced is, “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

    In error I cited Galatians 2:20, which caused jd to interact on the wrong verse. That verse I meant to indicate is Galatians 2:21.

    Th article below shows some interaction I have had with the teaching of the advocates of Lordship Salvation. It demonstrates from the LS writer's own work that LS is a non-savng, works based message.

    Lordship Salvation's Barter System


    LM
     
    #17 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
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  18. Lou Martuneac

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    Another example of the works based Lordship Salvation message is MacArthur's confusing and blending the doctrines of discipleship with salvation.

    Here is an example that contains numerous quotes from MacArthur's LS books (which canadyjd has never read).

    John MacArthur's Discipleship Salvation

    If you'd like to read more of this where I have answered Lordship's corruption of the Gospel you can read more articles at my blog or read my 300 page book on the subject.


    LM
     
    #18 Lou Martuneac, Jan 6, 2008
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  19. Timtoolman

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    ur

    triple post, :)
     
    #19 Timtoolman, Jan 6, 2008
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  20. Timtoolman

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    ur

    oops, double post.
     
    #20 Timtoolman, Jan 6, 2008
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