Featured John MacArthur's eschatology book

I agree totally with what you are saying: If one imposes a dispensational grid over the Bible: Literalism over spiritual interpretation, Israelist vs. Messianic Kingdom (All the promises in Him are Yes and Amen) then, yes, you would end up as a futurist of a dispensational stripe.

 

Haven't read the book in question but have read several of MacArthur's books and enjoy them. Sadly MacArthur has embraced the hole of dispensationalism and instead of climbing out like all others he just keeps digging!:tear:

Regarding your comment on

I suggest that the those you mention are more biblical than dispensationalism! I disagree with the dispensational doctrine on eschatology but that is not their major problem. Their doctrine of a "parenthesis Church" is completely unbiblical. Taken to its logical conclusion it raises serious questions about the nature of God and the mission and ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

While I disagree strongly with the full preterist doctrine on the Second Coming they are correct on the Doctrine of the Church. They believe, as I do, that when Jesus Christ told God the Father I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.[John 17:4] He was telling the truth.

 

Could you present some Scripture on the "postponed Kingdom to Israel"?

 

There is another word for your understanding of eschatology but "secure" is not what comes to my mind. I'll let Grasshopper answer for himself, but the reason why I chime in is when you label Preterism (and the other beliefs on that list of yours) as "unbiblical". You are certainly welcome to label them as such, but don't be surprised if others don't always coo in agreement.

After all, you aren't scribbling in your diary. You are writing on a public board.

As a matter of fact I do have a "huge urge" to "show the world" my views. As someone who calls himself "evangelist" you should understand that mindset.

 

He is pre-trib and to my knowledge has never in the slightest suggested otherwise. Although he doesn't emphasize seven dispensations, otherwise he's not even a progressive dispensationalist.

 

Hi OR,

This is not a confrontational question.

I am sincerely interested in the answer because this is (IMO) one of the barriers in my own mind to the "all things have been fulfilled in/around AD70" teaching of full preterism.

Why then is the church still in harvest mode going on down through the years after the ascension of Christ?

He promised to be the one who would build (future tense) His church ("I will build my church").

How is the continued existence of and the building of the church explained if all things have been fulfilled and/or finished AD70?

Personally, because of the phrase "on the earth" in His prayer you quoted from scripture, I believe by implication He meant His work done during the days of His servanthood and mortality.

Philippians 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

After His death, burial, resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God, He now builds His church(es) from heaven to fulfill his promise of "I will build My church".

Am I wrong or is that a valid assessment in your view?

Another possible answer is that the ongoing work (evangelization, discipleship, etc) is the work of the Holy Spirit.
If this is so then does it open the door to further eschatological events before the end of all things concerning which I have questioned asterisktom?

How does the universe end or will it?
Will sin and death continue on into eternity?

I have yet to have a on-on-one satisfactory answer from a full preterist.
I realize you are not a full preterist but I still value your answer to my question concerning the building of the church.

Thanks
HankD

 

Surprise surprise, your just like MaArthur. For a minute I thought I was on a debate forum, forgive me for my foolishness. Keep drinking the Kool-aid.

 

I believe the only thing fulfilled in 70 AD was the destruction of the temple and the end of the Old Covenant sacrificial system. Certainly the efficacy of that system was terminated with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ signified by the rending of the veil before the Holy of Holies.

Some might accuse me of partial preterism because I believe that certain parts of the Olivet discourse were fulfilled in 70AD, including of course the destruction of the temple.

I agree wholeheartedly. Jesus Christ was referring specifically to the accomplishment of His work on earth. Although He stated I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. I believe that included the crucifixion and resurrection. At the time of His prayer He had essentially been betrayed and given over to the Jewish leaders and Rome.

Jesus Christ is head of the Church and the true churches. The Apostle Paul states:

Colossians 1:17-19
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

In the sense that Jesus Christ is head if the Church he continues to build and sustain. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit is doing the work of the salvation of the elect from regeneration through sanctification

I want to mention that I have great respect for asterisktom and his knowledge of Scripture. I simply cannot understand the "why" of full preterism. I believe they are taking some Scripture too literally and other not sufficiently literal, such as the promise of the visible return in Acts 1:9f.

Tom has attempted to discuss full preterism on this forum but has generally been met with disdain.

I believe that one of the biggest mistakes that full preterists make is in their interpretation of Revelation. I simply cannot understand how they can insist that this book relates entirely to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Some of it well may and it possibly could have been written to warn the Christians at that time, However I believe the message of the book is far greater than that.

Sin and death will cease at the return of Jesus Christ. God blesses the Saints and the Apostle Paul when He states it thus:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe that the existing universe will end or be changed just as Scripture tells us: With the Second Coming of Jesus Christ sometime in the future. At that time the existing creation will be replaced by a completely New Heavens and New Earth or a renewal or regeneration of the existing universe. I lean toward the latter and Paul seems to allude to this in Romans 8.

Sometime back I questioned asterisktom about the difficulty that arise because full preterists reject the future Second Coming and subsequent events. The earth is one of limited resources. Now I realize that God can take care of that should He so choose.

[In an aside: I have a book on Thermodynamics written by Gordon VanWylen out of Michigan. He was of the opinion that God reset Entropy periodically. There are Dutch Reformed up there, it is possible he leaned toward preterism.]

I have given you a hurried response HankD because I am out of here. I do appreciate your very gracious response to my post. I believe you and I are in general agreement on your comments.

OR

 

Yes I agree with your last sentence.

Also I too have a great admiration for brother asterisktom - It is evident he has done his homework and tries to be gracious though he receives a lot of heat from others.

HankD

 

Clement of Alexandria (A.D.150-215)
"But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken.63 (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)

A preterist understanding of Matthew 24 goes way back before the 1800's.
MacAurther's brand of eschatology is relatively new.*

You'll never see the weaknesses and inconsistencies Of MacArthurs view if you never read opposing views. When you purchase your next MacArther book grab this one with it and compare the two views.


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0915815354/?tag=baptis04-20


Here is a free sampler:

http://www.bullartistry.com.au/pdf_lastdays/LastDaysIssues/04LastDays.pdf

 

http://www.bullartistry.com.au/pdf_lastdays/LastDaysIssues/04LastDays.pdf

DeMar states in the above reference: "The Preterist position holds that the Old Covenent and all its elements [Galatians 4:3; cf II Peter 3:10] ceased at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, and that the New Covenant and all of its spiritual elements for which they stood only in shadow [Galatians 3:25; Colossians 2:17; etc.] have been in place ever since."

I don't know whether Demar claims the above statement is exclusively preterist or not. I held the same view before I ever heard of preterism with the exception that I believe the New Covenant has been in force since the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.[Hebrews 7, 8] Furthermore I have believed that the Olivet Discourse predicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD as well as other events such as the visible return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory.

DeMar also state in the above reference that Sproul is a Preterist. In his book The Last Days According to Jesus Sproul states [page 158]: "We need to state it clearly for the record that R., C. Sproul, Sr. is not a full preterist but does see a lot of merit in the partial preterist approach similar to Ken Gentry."

 

[Spotted this little tidbit on the net. Any reaction?]

David Jeremiah Charged with Stealing !

This isn't a joke or malicious gossip! To see the shocking details, Google "Plagiarism Galore in a David Jeremiah Book - June 22, 2012." If you want to see which other well-known evangelical leaders are guilty of the same crime, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" and "Deceiving and Being Deceived" - both by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson.

 

I would like some reactions to "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," a Google article I recently bumped into while on my computer. Thank you and may the Lord bless you all.

 

Still waiting for that historical proof that jesus actually returned ad 70, and that there was a resurrection of all of the saints dead and living, and new heavens/eareth ushered in!

 

The sounds like Full Preterism or Hyper-preterism.

"Orthodox" Preterism or Partial Preterism holds that Jesus spoke about two "comings"--a "coming" ("in the clouds," not visible) upon Old Covenant Israel in judgment (fulfilled in A.D. 70), and a final, visible coming to earth for the final judgment and bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust.

 

So they would be close to A Mil view on second coming?

And it seems that the pretierists posting here are of the Hyper variety!

 

(I found this intriguing article on the net. Any reactions?)

Pretrib Rapture Pride

by Bruce Rockwell

Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) haven't a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice."
Other fascinating Google articles include "The Unoriginal John Darby," "X-raying Margaret," "Edward Irving in Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism" - most from the author of "The Rapture Plot," the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?