John Richard Rice

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Rippon, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    In another thread I mentioned having read and marked extensively JRR's book : " Predestined for Hell ? No ! " I will quote some elections from his booklet and put my original remarks at that time in parenthesis . He usually just called Calvinists hyper-calvinists and heretical . I am not calling him one .He regularly states things that Calvinists are said to believe but none have said . He had a tabloid-style to his writing , much like Armstrong . But judge for yourselves .

    I am convinced that Whitefield and Spurgeon were both influenced , by the pressure of Arminian theology in their day , to call themselves Calvinists , although neither was in actual practice and emphasis . ( You couldn't be more wrong . And in the 20th century Arminianism is not running rampant ? ) pages 6&7

    Some will think we have misrepresented Calvinism . But ... we are very carefully giving the meaning ... ( What a joke ! I KNOW you are misrepresenting Calvinism . ) page 10

    This doctrine insists that we need not urge a man to turn to Christ ( Nonsense . Preaching , exhorting , urging sinners to repent and turn to the Lord for salvation is a main thrust of Calvinism . Read sermons of Calvinists . Read Church history . )page 11

    ... God in mercy , elects some men to do certain tasks ... ( How weak and inadequate a view . )page 24

    The Bible has no doctrine of ' reprobation , ' and the Bible does not use that word , nor any word like it , in reference to predestination . It is a human word for a human conception . ( Much like the charge JW's make against the doctrine of the Trinity . Well , just cut out Jer. 6:30 from your KJ Bible . )page 24

    [ Abraham ] had the same chance for salvation that every other man has . He was no more elected to be saved than others are foreordained to be saved . ( Again , " chance " has nothing to do with God or salvation . It is a fiction . If you are saying Abraham was not elected you're just plain ignorant . Ur of the Chaldeans was a was a heathen land -- idols a-plenty -- God deliberately chose him out of those multitudes . Don't deny plain Scripture ! )page 31

    God does plan ahead in the affairs of men and works things according to His will .( Still the semi-sovereign God of Rice . Even Ben Franklin was stronger here . And besides , the Bible says " ALL things " . ) page 31

    Esau could have been saved , possibly was saved -- we don't know . No one is predestined to be saved or predestined to be lost . ( You are denying Scripture -- predestined to be lost : Pro. 16:4 , Ro. 9:22 ; 2 Cor. 11:15 , 1 Thess. 5:9 , 1 Pe. 2:8 ,4:17 , 2 Pe. 2:3 ,3;7 , Jude 4 ) page 32

    ... the Lord Jesus wanted to save the whole world ... ( " wanted to " ... but failed ? !! His sovereign will is not crossed . If He willed the salvation of everyone -- everyone would be saved . Everyone is not saved -- because He did not will it .) page 41
     
  2. Rippon

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    Continuing ...

    God arranged that every person who should ever live could be saved if he would . ( If he would ? Nobody can will themself to be saved . Christ came to secure salvation for His elect -- He did not merely make it possible either . ) page 44

    [ After quoting 1 Cor. 15:21,22 ] This Scripture plainly teaches that as all men potentially became sinners by Adam's sin , so all that are ever born are potentially made alive in Christ . ( What amazing dexterity of the hands you have ! ) page 47

    Do you believe God is a crooked God who demands that men repent who cannot repent , and then damns them for not doing what they cannot do ? ( He is a just God . Their obligation is not lessened by their inabliity . John Legg says in The Footsteps Of God == " Pelagius believed that God would be unjust to command what man could not perform . So man must be free and able to repent , obey and be holy . Grace is limited to making known to man his duty and encouraging him in performing it ." ) page 53

    We are told that Esau was a man who missed out on God's election ... it was not a matter of salvation at all . ( Romans 9:13 ,22 say otherwise ) page 59

    The Bible does not picture God as having some people selected for salvation and others selected for damnation . ( What Bible are you reading ? That is a ridiculous statement . And you preach ? ) page 62
     
  3. Rippon

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    God may decide some matters for men but never moral matters of right and wrong . ( How nice of you to concede God some power . However , the Scriptures are much more emphatic about His supremecy and the fact that He does change man's hearts and will . Too many Scriptures are against you . ) Page 67

    ... gnashed on him with their teeth ( ! ) page 69

    I speak not now of the taint in our carnal nature .... ( It is much more serious than a mere " taint " . Did Christ die for faults ? ) page 71

    ... the blood of Christ has purchased people for salvation who do not take salvation . ( Then they are not really purchased or bought by the Lord ! The only people purchased for salvation are His elect -- acts 20:28 ) page 72

    But knowing that some men sometimes choose wrongly ... ( Come on ! ) page 75

    But the ability to fall was in the very nature of man . ( I never thought of that as an " ability " . That's funny ! )page 76

    The Bible ... never says that God is an absolute unlimited sovereign . ( Do you believe this guy ? Start with Daniel and Isaiah to become aware of the real Lord of the Bible . ) page 79

    God is love and love limits absolute sovereignty . ( Huh ? )page 80


    These are just a sampling of John R. Rice statements . I would rather uphold God's honor rather than any man's .
     
  4. John of Japan

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    To the denizens of the Baptist Board:

    Before this thread goes any further, I would like to make several things clear.

    (1) John R. Rice was my grandfather. And his legal name was John R. Rice, not John Richard Rice.
    (2) You may see the other thread that Rippon is referring to at: http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/16/458/6.html#000079. It is clear that Rippon prejudged the book he is talking about, since he says there, "John, I only own one book of Rice's, and that's his classic: 'Predestined For Hell? No!' You have to watch out or it sounds like cursing the way it is put. I bought it knowing that he would do his best to distort the Word of God." Therefore this thread will not be a debate, it will be an argument.
    (3) Giving no proof other than his own opinion, Rippon slandered my grandfather by calling him a liar ("the man was deliberating lying"), a man-pleaser ("just to appear brillant (sic) to your even less informed followers"), a distorter of Scripture and a willing purveyor of nonsense ("That is just so much nonsense . He knew it was but he put out these 'publications' nevertheless."). Rippon is unrepentant, therefore you can be sure he will use more slander in this thread.
    (4) I have no brief against either Calvinists or Arminians. (I am in the middle.) My best friend (other than my wonderful wife) for over 30 years is a 5-pointer and I love him like a brother. However, I do not personally participate in the typical Calvinist vs. Arminian debate on the Baptist Board, and will only watch this one to counter more slander against my grandfather. Personally I believe the subject will not be resolved by us humans. To quote Monroe Parker, one of my mentors, "I am willing to let God have some secrets."

    If anyone is willing to "debate" (argue with) Rippon on the basis of his past posts, have at it. But I will watch for slander.

    May God bless each of you.
     
  5. Timtoolman

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    It is funny that no matter how far you go back to study the arguement of calvinism that the same accusations arise.
    Makes God the author of sin.
    Makes God a respector or persons.
    Makes God a hateful God.
    Makes God a controlling puppeteer.
    It may be, just may be that the words calvnist are using are indeed saying these things.

    John Rice was a man who loved God and people. I have read many of his books and pamphlants. He was and is one of the great fathers of faith.
     
  6. Ulsterman

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    What a blessing! When I was a young believer I read almost every book or booklet Dr. Rice wrote, including "Predestined to Hell, No." I thank God that because of his writings I early on rejected hyper-Calvinism, and a good many other spurious beliefs. I never heard him preach (living as I am several thousands miles away from the U.S.) but would have loved to. I always think of John R. Rice as a very influential figure in my Christian life, and I thank God for His life and ministry. You are a very blessed man John of Japan!
     
  7. bapmom

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    I also consider Dr. Rice to have been a large influence on my life. As a young person I read his book "The Home" and it influenced much of how Ive thought ever since. I never got to hear him preach, but I got to hear his wife speak a few words at a Bible college before she went to Heaven.
     
  8. shannonL

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    John R. Rice was a Godly man. A man who loved the Word of God, loved Jesus, and loved people. If there were more men like him living today the IFB as a movement would be in a lot better shape as far as being in unity. Alot of the proof a fellow has to show for his walk with God is in what he leaves behind. Dr. Rice left a rich legacy behind as far as his family was concerned along with other things.
    I have always respected your opinions and your demeanor here on the baptistboard J.of Japan. Finding out that your related to Dr. Rice was a added blessing. I know you owe everything to the Lord first of course. But just like Timothy was influenced by his mother and grandmother so were you influenced by your grandfather. You bear his name well.
    I don't care from what corner of baptist life you come from if one knows anything at all about John. R. Rice they know he was a fair, honest, Godly man who would never publish anything that would bring harm to the body of Christ nor to the Scriptures.
     
  9. Mexdeaf

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    I guess I am privileged. I got to hear Dr. Rice preach many times. One of my most privileged posessions is a Bible he signed for me.

    When I think of Dr. Rice, the word 'grace' comes to mind. He wasn't perfect by a long shot, but the thing is he knew that and never put on airs.

    As I posted on another thread, if he were alive today, he would be giving certain parts of IFB-dom fits.
     
  10. Gold Dragon

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    I honestly had no idea who John R. Rice was until I joined this forum a little under a year ago. Like JoJ, he sounds like a man of God I would have had great respect for and would have enjoyed being around even though we would probably have disagreed on many things.
     
  11. shannonL

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    Mexdeaf,

    How right you are. I think maybe he was the last fellow that IFB as a whole would give a unified listening ear too. I know Lee Roberson is still alive but he is very very old.
    I find it interesting that in the biography of Adrian Rogers he himself mentions how John R. Rice had a tremendous impact on him as a young preacher as well as the Sword of the Lord had a trememdous impact as well.
    I'm afraid that shows how the SOL has gotten out of balance since JRR days. (I'm not SOL bashing just making a observation).
     
  12. rlvaughn

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    Noting what Gold Dragon writes, it may be that John R. Rice is not that well-known (as those who know of him assume) to many folks. Here is a link with a couple of bios: John R. Rice
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Thanks to everyone for these kind words, and to rlvaughn for the link. The bio by Fred Barlow is excellent and accurate.

    The 1980 funeral was amazing. Imagine if you will Jack Hyles, Curtis Hutson, Jerry Falwell (and a few others) speaking, with Bob Jones Jr. attending and Billy Graham sending a 4 foot flower wreath. (I stood and looked at it in amazement!) And, oh yes, there was the letter to Grandma from Ronald Reagan.

    I was the number two grandson and the first to preach the Gospel. Mom was the second of his six daughters. I was named John Rice Himes after my grandfather (he had the final say on the name), the "Rice" part of which gets me double takes from Asians. [​IMG]
     
  14. Humblesmith

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    Just FYI....
    Norman Geisler includes a small section on John R. Rice in Vol. 1 of his systematic theology. Dr. Geisler spoke highly of him in his class lectures.
     
  15. swaimj

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    Hey John of Japan,

    Do you know if the Sword of the Lord published transcripts of the funeral sermons? I would love to see what was said.
     
  16. John of Japan

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    Fascinating about Norm Geisler, Humblesmith. Thanks for that info.

    swaimj, sorry, I don't remember that they did. But it has been 25 years. I do still have the program of the event, though. If I can find it I will list the speakers.
     
  17. Rippon

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    JOJ , I , of course did not know that JRR was your grandfather . I am sure he was a kind loving man . I am certain he believed he was doing God's will .

    But it would be hard for you to remain objective about his theology . If one differs from him you think that one is in error .

    You can't be a fence-sitter regarding the truths of Scripture . This Arminian/Calvinism issue has to be dealt with . Great truths are at stake . If you (or anyone ) thinks they can stay in a gray zone they are mistaken . John R. Rice and most professing believers today are Arminian whether they know it or not . Calvinism is the antithesis of Arminianism . It is a black and white contrast .

    It is telling that nobody addressed your grandfather's words from his booklet against what he tried to characterize as Calvinism . He made some charges up out of whole cloth . The God he believed in was weak and at man's command , not the sovereign ( O how he hated that word ! ) Lord of all . He constantly called Calvinists hyper-calvinists . He didn't bother to check out the truth . He had no understanding of Church History ( of which I believe all preachers should have a basic grasp ) . And Church History goes back a bit more than the times of Charles Finney and DL Moody .

    Try to support his contentions with Scripture . You tell me if he was in-fact slandering up a storm in his book or not . The word " heretic " was quick to come out of his mouth against others . Do you believe his manner of presentation was God-honoring ? Do you think that someone should have a working knowledge of their subject before they go into print ? Did he make any mistakes in his book ?
     
  18. John of Japan

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    And you know me from where, to know whether I am objective about his theology? Actually my theology is different from his in many ways. Grandpa died 26 years ago and I've changed much since then. I've picked up an MA in Biblical Studies for example.

    I am not a fence sitter on Calvinism vs. Armininianism. I am a Biblicist. Frankly, I don't want what I believe to be called by any person's name, be it Calvin, Arminius or John R. Rice. (I am not a Riceist!)

    Now, I'm supposed to let you persuade me to be a Calvinist after you called my grandfather a liar, etc.? Sorry, life doesn't work that way. I gave you fair warning on the other thread about my relationship to John R. Rice. And frankly, your manner of speaking on that thread does not represent Calvinism well at all.

    I have books of Calvin himself, several Calvinist systematic theologies (which I have read, by the way), etc., if I want to go that route.

    God bless.
     
  19. Plain Old Bill

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    Why is it that some calvinist think they are the jello sheriff and will put everybody in the boxes they want them in. They will tell you you are either a calvinist or an armenian and those are your only choices.Wrong.

    By the way John of Japan your secret is still safe with me.
     
  20. Rippon

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    I want to mention two times when I said " nonsense " referring to JRR . Again , he was trying to categorize all Calvinists as believing some preposterous things . He painted with a broad brush and did not allow for any differences . On page 11 of his book he stated " This doctrine insists that we need not urge a man to turn to Christ . " I said that was nonsense , I still insist that it is . JOJ , ask your Calvinist friend if Calvinists think we should not urge people , plead with them, implore and command them in the Name of the Lord to repent , believe and turn to the Lord . Your grandfather's statement ( and he said it more than once ) was not true .

    Another thing that I said was nonsense was his stance that anyone believing in TULIP was a hyper-calvinist . That is rubbish . Was Spurgeon a hyper-calvinist then ? Do you know or acknowlege a cleavage between hyper-calvinism and calvinism ? Do you care ? Or is it just easier to lump us all in together for your convenience ? There is a lack of integrity there . Your grandfather was respected by many in the Fundamentalist camp . Many followed his wild assertions whole , without examination . You loved him -- he loved you . He did many nice things . But you can't allow your affection for him to cloud your mind . Honesty is called for . Many are raised with a certain church background . And they accept wholehearedly all that that group believes .But there comes a time for truth's sake when a reckoning will take place among those who desire to be conformed to Scripture . These folks will want to meet with others of like mind . Their tradition has to yield to that of something more biblical .

    Not once in your grandfather's book did he mention the Gospel Standard folks . Many of them are godly and there is a lot of good teaching . However they , and likemined people deny duty faith and a free proclamation of the gospel ( among other doctrinal deviations ). They are hypercalvinists . Investigate and see for yourself . Do not generalize . Do not put words in people's mouths or charge them with beliefs they repudiate . Do not be like your grandfather in this regard . He was not fair . He had to know of the big differences in the Calvinistic camp ( and the GS group is a small minority ) . If he didn't know the facts he should not have gone into print on the subject . But that hasn't stopped Dave Hunt and others . Your anger over calling your grandfather on his sins should not stop you from some conceding the truth of my points .

    I will address his Scripture twisting in future posts . One thing at a time . I am not saying it is easy to accept , but your integrity is on the line here .
     

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