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John T. Christian's Books

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Mark Osgatharp, Oct 25, 2004.

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  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    John T. Christian, a Southern Baptist pastor and historian from the turn of the 20th century era, wrote a 2 volume history of the Baptists which was originally published by Broadman Press and is now published by Bogard Press, the publishing house of the American Baptist Association. The first volume of his work traces the history of the Baptist churches from the time of Christ up to the 17th century.

    Christian also wrote two other books, "Did They Dip?" and "Baptist History Vindicated", which argue against the theory that the Baptists originated in 17th century England.

    All of Christian's books are well documented scholarly works. Though they have been ignorned by restorationist and modernist historians, they have never been successfully refuted.

    Christian's 2 volume history is available from Bogard Press (www.abaptist.org) and is also online (www.pbministries.org/History/baptist_history.htm). This, and his other works, can sometimes be found on the Advaced Book Exchange (www.abebooks.com) and can also be accessed through inter-library loans.

    Anyone interested in the facts of Baptist history cannot afford to ignore Christian's writings. Short of the day when God open's His history books, they will remain the final word in Baptist history.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #1 Mark Osgatharp, Oct 25, 2004
  2. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Mark O, I have had the two set volume for a long time and still enjoy them.

    Rufus
     
    #2 rufus, Oct 30, 2004
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Two thumbs up for that dear brother's work. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Oct 30, 2004
  4. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    I am reading John T. Christian's work for the first time.
    I'm surprised he is taken so seriously by the lot of you. He considers the Albigensians Christians ( baptist Christians even) although even a cursory reading of some of the Albigenses own religious texts that have survived will cure anyone of that notion.
    He strongly downplays those qualities of the movements he points as as baptistic that don't fit his paradigm of what a baptist church should look like.
    And at least untill chapter 7 (I just finished it) his sources are usually secondary instead of primary.
     
    #4 mioque, Oct 31, 2004
  5. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    The history of the Lord's Churches: is about Jude 3. It is not about conclusions drawn from generalizations and stereotypes recorded by those of the Antichrist.

    Satan has tried very diligently to defile The Bride of Christ and the record of Her existence.

    He will fail--because the Bridegroom has already "bruised his head"--"it is finished.."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #5 Bro. James, Oct 31, 2004
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Mioque,

    You said,

    You mean, just like the modernist "Baptist" historians downplay those qualities of the ancient non-Catholic movements that don't fit their pre-conceived dogma that there shall be no Baptist church prior to the 17th century? Actually, I find it quite amusing that modernist "Baptist" historians even presume to comment on what is or isn't a "baptistic" church, since many of them don't even know what it means to be a Christian, much less a Baptist.

    But in reality, Christian does not downplay the negative aspects of these groups at all. In fact, after pointing out some of their doctrinal abberations he says,

    "No effort is here attempted to minimize, or to dismiss as trivial, these variations" (vol. 1 page 5).

    You said,

    To start with, the churches under consideration left very few records of themselves and therefore it is impossible to quote what they themselves said to any great degree; we are almost entirely dependent on what their contemporary persecutors wrote about them. This is not, by the way, "secondary" material.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #6 Mark Osgatharp, Oct 31, 2004
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Mioque,

    You said,

    I would suggest that a cursory reading of the writings of many modern day "Baptists" would prove that they are devils incarnate. Does that prove that their are no Baptists today?

    By the way, could you give me a quote from some of these Albigensian writings you have read that would prove they were not Christians?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #7 Mark Osgatharp, Oct 31, 2004
  8. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "we are almost entirely dependent on what their contemporary persecutors wrote about them."
    "
    That's not what Christian uses, he more often than not uses books by other historians written centuries (sometimes over a thousand years) after the fact.

    "Christian does not downplay the negative aspects of these groups at all."
    "
    I know enough of Montanism for example to notice the fact that Christian downplays the extra-biblical revelation angle of the movement as much as possible.

    "we are almost entirely dependent on what their contemporary persecutors wrote about them."
    "
    Certainly not true in all cases, a good handfull Albigensian religious texts survive for example.
     
    #8 mioque, Oct 31, 2004
  9. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "could you give me a quote from some of these Albigensian writings you have read that would prove they were not Christians?"
    "
    The following comes from the Interrogatio Iohannis.
    "And after that I, John, asked of the Lord, saying: How say men that Adam and Eve were created by God and set in paradise to keep the commandments of the Father, and were delivered unto death? And the Lord said to me: Hearken, John, beloved of my Father; foolish men say thus in their deceitfulness that my Father made bodies of clay: but by the Holy Ghost made he all the powers of the heavens, and holy ones were found having bodies of clay because of their transgression, and therefore were delivered unto death.

     And again I, John, asked the Lord: How beginneth a man to be in the Spirit (to have a spirit) in a body of flesh? And the Lord said unto me: Certain of the angels which fell do enter unto the bodies of women, and receive flesh from the lust of the flesh, and so is a spirit born of spirit, and flesh of flesh, and so is the kingdom of Satan accomplished in this world and among all nations. "
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/cathar-gospel.html
     
    #9 mioque, Oct 31, 2004
  10. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Mioque,

    Is that the best you can do? Your quote proves nothing about what Albigensians believed. If it proves anything at all, it proves only what one man believed. You said,

    Well, I haven't counted quotes so I don't know about the "more often than not." And it really doesn't make any difference. He does quote from secondary sources to show that his findings are corroborated by the older historians.

    All of that notwithstanding, Christian does quote copiously from the original sources, and the fact that he also cites secondary sources does not nullify his primary sources.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #10 Mark Osgatharp, Oct 31, 2004
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    mioque - do not the Baptists in your area see other groups of the past 2000 years as part of their spiritual heritage, even if they follow many non-baptist practices?

    Most in the US do. We would not embrace nor endorse a number of these groups (Novatianist, Donatist, Petrobrussians, Albigenses, et al) but recognize that they DID hold to many of the distinctives of Baptists.

    I'd be careful with the Broad Brush, saying they were "not Christian". It may be an ethnic way of looking at history.
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, Oct 31, 2004
  12. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "Is that the best you can do?"
    "
    The Interrogatio Iohannis is an Albigensian sacred text, part of their Bible so to speak (the Iohannis in the title is supposed to be the disciple Jezus loved), it's not a transcript of the interrogation of somebody in medieval France called Iohannis.

    "Christian does quote copiously from the original sources,"
    "
    Not enough in the first part of that first volume of baptist history
     
    #12 mioque, Oct 31, 2004
  13. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "do not the Baptists in your area see other groups of the past 2000 years as part of their spiritual heritage, even if they follow many non-baptist practices?"
    "
    Sure, usually in a more general sense than often seen in the US, on the other hand at least half of the elders in my church believe that most orthodox American Baptists downplay the significance of the Ana-Baptist movement's part in the Baptist heritage.

    "I'd be careful with the Broad Brush, saying they were 'not Christian'."
    "
    The Albigensians were apparently Gnostics, I'd say the not Christian verdict is warranted in their case.
     
    #13 mioque, Oct 31, 2004
  14. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    History of J.T. Christian's 2-volume book--

    During the 1970's, perhaps longer, Vol. 2 of this set was apparently "out of print"--something to do with copyright.

    Does anyone know if this is so? And why?

    Bro. James
     
    #14 Bro. James, Nov 1, 2004
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