John W. Giles and his influence

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mojoala, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala
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    John W. Gile?

    Yes John W. Gile!

    Why?

    He is the President of the Alabama Chapter of the Christian Coalition. If you remember the Christian Coalition was established by Pat Robertson after his failure at a bid for the Presidency of the United States.

    For more information on Christian Coalition:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Coalition
    http://www.cc.org/
    and the Alabama Chapter :
    http://www.ccbama.org

    Well why? Here it goes.

    John W Giles was born and raised a Southern Baptist.

    On Easter of 2004 John W Giles rocked the state of Alabama by becoming a Roman Catholic.

    President of a Baptist Dominated Organization converting to Catholicism!

    This act of treason burned at the core of my being. A devout Bible Only Beleiving christian joining a Pagan if not Satanic cult! There was not a day that passed that John W. Giles did not cross my mind, always ending in the inevitable question: WHY?

    Until....April 14, 2006 (Good Friday)....I could no longer keep going without an answer. So I called him at his office. Spoke to the secretary why I was calling, she immediately patched me thru to him. I asked him why? He gave me an answer in the which consisted of a trinity of words:

    "GOD", "JERUSALEM", "HISTORY".

    He then proceeded to tell me, If I wanted details then I should first read his conversion story. He emailed me the link to it. He said if I still have questions after reading his story, he would be more than happy to schedule a one on one. I thanked him for his link and ended the conversation.

    I went there and printed it out and read it.

    A very pious story. Very compelling. An unfortunately for my mind, very true.

    As a result I called him back asked him about some books on Christian History. I purchased these. And started reading.

    I also at the beginning of June enrolled my self at Huntington College(methodist/presbyterian oriented) and Faulkner University (Baptist oriented) and am taking Christian History at both. Two different text books with two different slants. These books have quotes from the Early church fathers. The author of each book has cafeterized what quotes to include and what quotes to leave out depending upon the slant. I know this because I have a book that contains all the quotes and commentaries by the early church fathers.

    I am becoming feared by both Professors, because I am asking those uncomfortable questions and providing ECF quotes to backup the questions.

    My Pastor has formal training. When I started asking him what he learned in College/Seminary, he clams up and get uncomfortable especially when I mention the early church fathers. In my opinion he knows the truth, but refuses to preach it.

    I am also reading the other conversion stories....much to my chagrine.

    After John W. Giles conversion, the Christian Coalition made a motion to hold an election of a New President. John gave a copy of his conversion story to each voter and asked them to read it in it's entirety before actually voting. He won the reelection.

    John's conversion story is titled:
    "My Christian Journey from Jerusalem To Rome"

    John W. Giles conversion story is here:

    http://www.chnetwork.org/gilesconv.htm

    If you comment on this thread, please only do so after reading the entire story.

    Good day and God bless.
     
  2. rbell

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    just a brief correction:

    Huntington college in Montgomery AL is associated solely with the UMC; Faulkner university in Montgomery AL is associated solely with the Church of Christ.
     
  3. mojoala

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    Thanks for the correction. I was just guessing at the affiliation.

    Faulkner, had no idea it was Church of christ. Just about every student in my class is of Baptist persuasion.
     
  4. genesis12

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    He fell in love with the RCC. That's a little different from falling in love with Jesus.
     
  5. mojoala

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    He fell in love with Jesus in 1976. But you probably missed all that. You probably read it with the intent of trying to find something to be negative about. This man has involved himself in all types of ministries and christian programs during his life. More ministries and programs then any 20 of us here at this board.
     
    #5 mojoala, Jun 29, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2006
  6. Rooselk

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    It's not as though the writings of the Early Church Fathers are not readily available to anyone who wants to read them (here's just one link of several: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/). And five hundred years ago the leaders of the Reformation were very knowledgeable and aware of those writings as well. The writings of the Church Fathers are very instructive and profitable in that there is much we can learn by reading them. Even so, we should have the same mindset as the Reformers in that we should read those writings through the lens of Scripture as they did. Unlike the writings of the New Testament, the writings of the Church Fathers are not infallible and without doctrinal error.

    Although I was raised a Roman Catholic and became a Baptist, I can understand and even relate to the experience that John Gile writes about. For many years after leaving the Roman Catholic Church I was bothered by the re-occurring thought that if my Baptist beliefs were true, then for many centuries the world must have been without a witness and the hope of salvation given the corruption and idolatry of the Western Church. This seemed to conflict with the Lord's promise that, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " (Matthew 16:18)

    A few years ago, though, I too started reading the writings of the Early Church Fathers. What I discovered was that these writings reveal a church that was much different than that we are used to here in North America - and certainly much different than the Baptistic church that I attended. For instance, I learned that the ancient church had held to the doctrinal position of the "Real Presence" in the Lord's Supper from it's earliest days (as is clear in reading the Apology of Justin Martyr written around 150 AD); that with one exception, that of Tertullian, infant baptism was practised without objection; and that the early church was liturgical in it's practice. But while I could see a glimmer of some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church in these writings, they did not drive me back into the arms of the Catholicism that I had rejected years before. Rather, they sparked my interest in reading the Reformers.

    In reading Justin Martyr's description of a Sunday service in the Early Church, I was reminded not of a Roman Catholic Mass, but of a typical service that one would find today in a Lutheran Church. And in reading the Reformers I see the link they have to the Church Fathers and earliest days of Christianity.

    I think that Mr. Gile is wrong. But I can certainly understand why he chose the path he has has taken.
     
  7. Rooselk

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    By the way, I strongly disagree with Mr. Giles assertion that, "Under Martin Luther certain books were removed from the Old Testament, even though they were in the Bible used by Jesus and the Apostles." He is, of course, referring to the Old Testament Apocrypha. The truth is that these writings, while useful historical documents, are not a part of the Jewish cannon. The Catholic Church only consider them cannonical in order to justify doctrines like Purgatory, etc. While some of the Early Church Fathers in their writings did quote from some of these books, the Catholic Church did not declare them a part of the Church Cannon until the Council of Trent following the Reformation.
     
  8. mojoala

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    Church Fathers

    "What, then, again says the prophet? 'The assembly of the wicked surrounded me; they encompassed me as bees do a honeycomb,'[Ps. 22:17,118:12] and 'upon my garment they cast lots'[Ps. 22:19]. Since, therefore, He was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, His suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against Israel, 'Woe to their soul, because they have counselted an evil counsel against themselves[Isa. 3:9,] saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us'[Wisdom 2:12]. And Moses also says to them, 'Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord sware tto give to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey'[Ex. 33:1, Lev. 20:24]." Epistle of Barnabas, 6 (A.D. 74).


    "Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. 'Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? Or, who shall resist the power of His strength?'[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. 'The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.'[Ps. 19:1-3]." Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5 (c. A.D. 80).

    "'Be just in your judgement' [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving' [Sirach 4:31]." Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).

    "Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because 'alms delivers from death'[Tobit 4:10,12:9]. Be all of you subject one to another? [1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,' [1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! [Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct.” Polycarp, To the Phillipians, 10 (A.D. 135).
     
  9. mojoala

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    The Old Testament Canon



    During the Reformation, primarily for doctrinal reasons, Protestants removed seven books from the Old Testament: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith, and parts of two others, Daniel and Esther. They did so even though these books had been regarded as canonical since the beginning of Church history.

    As Protestant church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books" (Early Christian Doctrines, 53), which are rejected by Protestants.

    Below we give patristic quotations from each of the deuterocanonical books. Notice how the Fathers quoted these books along with the protocanonicals. The deuterocanonicals are those books of the Old Testament that were included in the Bible even though there had been some discussion about whether they should be.

    Also included are the earliest official lists of the canon. For the sake of brevity these are not given in full. When the lists of the canon cited here are given in full, they include all the books and only the books found in the modern Catholic Bible.

    When examining the question of what books were originally included in the Old Testament canon, it is important to note that some of the books of the Bible have been known by more than one name. Sirach is also known as Ecclesiasticus, 1 and 2 Chronicles as 1 and 2 Paralipomenon, Ezra and Nehemiah as 1 and 2 Esdras, and 1 and 2 Samuel with 1 and 2 Kings as 1, 2, 3, and 4 Kings—that is, 1 and 2 Samuel are named 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Kings are named 3 and 4 Kings. The history and use of these designations is explained more fully in Scripture reference works.

    The Didache


    "You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).

    The Letter of Barnabas


    "Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).

    Clement of Rome


    "By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).

    Polycarp of Smyrna


    "Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood [1 Pet. 2:17].
    . . . When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’ [Tob. 4:10, 12:9]. Be all of you subject to one another [1 Pet. 5:5], having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles [1 Pet. 2:12], and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed [Is. 52:5]!" (Letter to the Philadelphians 10 [A.D. 135]).

    Irenaeus


    "Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).

    "Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36—5:9]" (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often considered part of Jeremiah, as it is here).

    Hippolytus


    "What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).
     
  10. mojoala

    mojoala
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    Cyprian of Carthage


    "In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering . . ."’ [Gen. 22:1–2]. . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality . . .’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’ [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23]" (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).

    "So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshipped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, ‘I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth’ [Dan. 14:5]" (Letters 55:5 [A.D. 253]; Daniel 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).

    Council of Rome


    "Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).

    Council of Hippo


    "[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are
    as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

    Council of Carthage III


    "[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).

    Augustine


    "The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).

    "We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

    The Apostolic Constitutions


    "Now women also prophesied. Of old, Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron [Ex. 15:20], and after her, Deborah [Judges. 4:4], and after these Huldah [2 Kgs. 22:14] and Judith [Judith 8], the former under Josiah and the latter under Darius" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:2 [A.D. 400]).

    Jerome


    "What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seem that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, ‘This is not the time to discuss such matters’" (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]).

    Pope Innocent I


    "A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . ." (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).
     
  11. BD17

    BD17
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    Mojoala are you going to just copy and paste your arguments or do you actually have anything to say about it yourself.
     
  12. Rooselk

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    mojoala, since I pointed out that quotes from the Apocrypha can be found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, what's your point? And while you can certainly point to Early Fathers who thought that these writings should be included in the canon, I'm sure you're also aware that Fathers like Athanasius and Jerome held a contrary view with regard to the inclusion of these books. I am certain that you also know that Judaism recognizes the 39 Old Testament books found in the Palestinian Canon, which are the same books recognized by Protestants.

    As I stated in my earlier post, like the Reformers I believe that the writings of the Early Church Fathers should be read through the lens of Scripture. Similarly, the Old Testament needs to be read through the lens of the New. This means that even if it were true that the Apocrypha should have been included as a part of the canon of Scripture, as Christians we read the Old Testament in light of the further revelation of Jesus and the Apostles found in the New Testament.

    While you have done an exellent job of posting quotes from the Apocrypha that are included in the writings of the Church Fathers, perhaps you can likewise provide us similar quotes from the Apocrypha by the writers of New Testament?

    Finally, I would say that the Lord himself alluded to the close of the Old Testament canon when he mentioned that "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah" the prophets sent by God had been murdered (Matthew 23:35 and Luke 11:51). Abel, of course, is found in the first book of the Old Testament while Zechariah was one of the last of the Old Testament prophets. The Apocrypha primarily deals with with the period between the Old and the New Testaments after the time of Zechariah.
     
    #12 Rooselk, Jun 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2006

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