Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Paul3144, May 29, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Paul3144

    Paul3144
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,378
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    It clearly states that there 'is common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ.'
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    "Common understanding" ?

    Jud 1:3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    This common faith was settled and delivered at the first Christian council in Jerusalem. Acts 15. Faith alone is all that is needed for justification/salvation.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    A common understanding is clearly set out in the Bible:
    Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God (Rom.5:1).
    A common understanding was clearly set out by Luther when he posted his 95 Theses.
    A common understanding was clearly set out by the Council of Trent.

    These are the historical common understandings that we have come to.
     
  5. BillySunday1935

    BillySunday1935
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    and NOT by faith alone.... :thumbs:
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ok well it starts out with a downright facinating review -

    Then this statement that differences on the doctrine of justification still exist between them - but they are not going to condemn each other over those real remaining differences. Thus this document might have been more accurately labeld "joint agreement not to condemen"

    If Martin Luther's view of Justification is "no longer" an occassion for condemnation of Luther by the RCC - does that mean that the RC church was wrong to condemn Luther? Did it err?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, May 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2010
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
    It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

    If you cannot see saved by faith alone in that verse you need glasses.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Two justifications.

    Justification past - as we see in Romans 3 and Romans 5. The justification received by the lost person that comes to Christ.

    Justification future - as we see in Romans 2 and James 2 that relies on the truth of "by their fruits you SHALL know them" Matt 7.

    It reveals what the state of that person already is
     
  9. BillySunday1935

    BillySunday1935
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

    You display your typical MO here DHK - quote one verse to prove (or disprove) a seminal doctrine without regards to the rest of scripture.

    In lieu of blasting each other with cherry picked verses, why not look at the question from a logical standpoint. Here are a few logical questions for you DHK...

    1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone do we, even God in order to be saved? However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we? We are saved by faith AND love (faith working through love) (Galatians 5:6). If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man.

    2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
    "But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

    3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

    4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

    5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone, is it? If however one were to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

    6. Jesus tells us in John 6:27, to labor for the food that leads to eternal life. That doesn’t sound like faith alone does it? Laboring in this context is clearly suggestive of faith AND works.

    7. Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If one were to answer yes to this question, then we are not saved by faith alone. After all, we cannot be saved, if our sins are not forgiven by God. And if we cannot have our sins forgiven by God if we do not forgive others, then we cannot be saved. Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

    8. Where in scripture does it say that we are saved by faith alone?

    As with Sola Scriptura, there are insurmountable scriptural and logical errors with the man-made doctrine of Sola Fide.

    Peace!
     
    #9 BillySunday1935, May 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2010
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,387
    Likes Received:
    790
    Or God given spiritual eyes
     
  11. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    go billy, go billy!!
     
  12. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    When addressing Jews, Paul wrote "by faith through grace." When addressing gentiles, Paul wrote, "saved by grace."

    Why the difference? Because Jews could reply, 'Yes, we are saved by observing the Law which Moses gave of by God's grace."
     
  13. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    There is only one gospel.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
    It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

    Paul wrote that to the Ephesians, a church composed of believers, of course. They were believers which had both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds.

    If one does not have faith alone in Christ alone who saves by grace alone, then it is doubtful that that one is saved at all.
     
    #13 DHK, May 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2010
  14. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    If one has faith without works, then it is doubtful that one is saved at all.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134

    It is a moot point seeing it is not speaking of salvation.
    It is a moot point seeing that it is directed to Christians only.
    If you must know the answer, love is greater because love will last longer. Faith and Hope will cease to exist at the coming of Christ. But love will go on and endure forever.
    This has been explained ad infinitum, and if done so again, I doubt if you would accept it. The basic teaching of James is simply that works is an outgrowth or the fruit of one's faith. A believer will show works in his life. If not taken in the context of the entire book you will get the wrong meaning--every time. There are no contradictions in the Bible.
    The Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary (thankfully!)
    The words "alone" or "only" to not even have to be used to teach it.
    For example:
    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    --One doesn't have to insert the word "alone" to know that that is what it teaches. If you had to insert something after "faith", then theoretically one could insert anything they wanted to, like "justified by faith, (and eating blue cheese)" It teaches "justified by faith" and nothing more, which means justified by faith alone.
    We are speaking of salvation, not judgment. Those are two different subjects.
    Jesus made a play on words. Are you like the Jews and could not understand his words also?
    Labor and faith are put together. What must we do? Jesus said "Believe."
    The only thing one can do is to believe. There are no works for salvation. Believe or have faith (not a work), is the only thing one can do to be saved.
    You don't have that capacity until you accept God's forgiveness and are saved. You don't know what love is until you are saved. You don't know what forgiveness is until you are saved.
    The first statement is right; the second statement is wrong. Who put conditions on God's forgiveness? Not God. He will forgive all who come to him.
    In Mat.6:14 Jesus was speaking to his disciples, saved individuals, and was not speaking of salvation.
    Thankfully the Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary.
    Saying and teaching are two different things.
    Also, the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek, not in King James English.
    It teaches it in Rom.5:1; Eph.2:8,9; Acts 16:31; Acts 10:43; John 3:16; John 3:36; 1John 5:10-13; etc. Over and over it teaches this wonderful truth, that a man is saved by faith alone.
    You have been reading man's philosophy and not the Bible.
     
  17. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, DHK, but true “saving faith” is never alone. We know that “saving faith” is always accompanied by good works (see the book of James), of which the 'first and foremost' is believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior.
     
  18. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following comes from the 'Joint Declaration' and makes me wonder if people like DHK even bothered to read it:

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works" (Eph 2:8f).

    11.Justification is the forgiveness of sins (cf. Rom 3:23-25; Acts 13:39; Lk 18:14), liberation from the dominating power of sin and death (Rom 5:12-21) and from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-14). It is acceptance into communion with God: already now, but then fully in God's coming kingdom (Rom 5:1f). It unites with Christ and with his death and resurrection (Rom 6:5). It occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism and incorporation into the one body (Rom 8:1f, 9f; I Cor 12:12f). All this is from God alone, for Christ's sake, by grace, through faith in "the gospel of God's Son" (Rom 1:1-3).

    12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God's promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ's body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ's "act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all" (Rom 5:18).
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    James was written to Christians not unbelievers. His purpose in writing was different. But no matter how many times you have been told that or in how much detail that will be explained to you, you will not accept it. Your answer will simply be: the same old; the same old. It does get tiring.

    However, it gets just as tiring that in so many other places in the Bible it is repeated not of works!!
    For by grace are ye saved... NOT OF WORKS.

    But if you won't believe the Bible, you won't believe God.
    Then who will you believe? The charlatans in the RCC, I suppose?
     
  20. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course it is not of works. It is by faith accompanied by works.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...