Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

The actual wording concerning justification by faith compromises not only Luther's position and the position of the Reformers but it compromises the Biblical position. The omission of the word "sola" or "only" changes the whole nature of this document to be a compromise with Catholicism. The Bibical positions is best stated "justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works."

 

We are not saved by faith alone but we are justified by faith alone and there is a difference. The term "save" or "salvation" is far more inclusive whereas "justified" in the Context of Romans 3:24-5:2 is very restrictive and refers to a complete action in the past prior to observance of ceremonial ordinances or law keeping.

Faith that justifies is not faithfulness. Justifying faith is ALWAYS said to be "in" something whereas faithfulness always refers to doing something.

The Biblical doctrine of righteousness by imputation through faith is how the "ungodly" are justified "without works" - Rom. 4:5. They are "ungodly" in regard to their personal faithfulness to God when they are justified as a completed past tense action. This can only be possible by imputation as impartation would deny they were "ungodly" when justified.

 

Stop playing the victim DHK.

I’m not venting at God – I am only pointing out the pomposity of your post(s).

Again – what is “in my heart” is of concern to God and not you. I neither want nor need advice from you in the matter.

Let's see...

“Faith that worketh by love”
Translation: faith WORKING by love – I.e. NOT by faith alone.

I never said that circumcision played a part in the Christian walk. Further, you completely dodged my question – again!

I am not avoiding it - I am embracing it!

Let me lay it out for you. You posted the following:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: to imply that all men are totally depraved.

I supplied you with the Old Testament showing that in Paul’s reference to the Psalms not everyone was totally depraved. Don’t you think he knew that already before choosing that particular verse?

Oh I see – so the Old Testament context means nothing – especially when it contradicts your positions. Right….

“…the depravity of man”? hmmm… that sounds mighty Calvinistic to me there, DHK.

Please make up your mind. Which is it? faith alone? grace alone? :sleep::sleep::sleep:

I use the brain that God gave me to think with, and I don’t swallow your particular flavor of fallible interpretation as truth - especially when scripture clearly contradicts it.

Peace!

 

No drivel; just the plain teaching of the Word of God. You see I accept the Word of God as it is; as it is written; and what it teaches in spite of the way it is written. You don't. Therefore you falsely accuse me.
I accept the way it is written and that it teaches salvation by "faith alone" even though it doesn't use the exact words "faith alone," whereas you demand of God that he must use those exact words, which indeed is ludicrous.

You haven't shown me any Scripture to the contrary; only your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Two Scriptures which you refuse to accept are Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Of course, over the matter of this discussion, I have given you many more--all of which you have ignored.

Is it scholarly to make a response that "salvation by faith alone is taught all throughout the Scriptures"? It is. But you don't accept scholarship. It seems that you don't accept basic Bible teaching.

I have looked at many languages. I have studied six and can speak three. What about you?

Your problem is theology.
My faith alone and God's grace alone.
As much as I try to explain this to you, you reject it.
Here it is again.
The object is Christ. He is the object of my faith.
The means is Grace. It is God's grace by which we are saved. There is no other way but by the cross of Christ--his atoning sacrifice.
The reception is by faith. The only way to receive this great gift is by faith. By faith I receive His salvation provided by His grace.
By faith alone I receive Christ alone (no other savior will do) by His grace alone.
--There is no other way of salvation. If you do not believe that you cannot be saved.

Do me a favor and don't call God's Word trash!
For by GOD's Grace are you saved by your faith in God's grace, and that not of YOURSELF.
1. God's Grace Alone.
2. Man's Faith Alone.
3. Christ Alone.
--don't call it trash.

There is no contradiction between Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Obviously you think there is, so you believe the Bible contradicts itself. That is sad.

Both verses teach that one is saved "by faith alone." You haven't figured that out yet??

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Why should I have to show you the word "alone."
Do you question God? You don't believe him? Did he say something different than that what is said here? You just don't want to believe Romans 5:1, correct?
Maybe you think it should read:
"Being justified by faith and playing with computers, we have peace with God."
--But it doesn't say that. The Holy Spirit didn't add anything to the word "faith." He didn't have to.

If you think you must cooperate with God's grace, then you know nothing of the grace of God. No one acts in compliance with the grace of God. It is given freely, and freely accepted though we don't deserve it. Grace is unmerited favor in its general sense. Jesus defined grace when he said that God allows the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. He makes the sun shine on the just and the unjust. That is grace. God gives us those things which we don't deserve. What did we ever do to deserve God's goodness?

Your interpretation is almost blasphemous.
Paul is speaking how he suffered for Christ. There was no cooperation on his part in the sufferings of Christ. He did not help pay for our sins. There was no cooperation with God's grace. How foolish a statement that is.
It was God's grace to mankind that brought us salvation. Man had no part in it. To say that he had any part in it is blasphemy.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is by grace alone. It cannot be by works. Works negates grace, and grace negates works. That is the teaching here, and thus grace alone.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--It is by faith alone.
Again, works negates faith, and faith negates works. The two cannot exist together.

Thus it is by grace alone through faith alone by which one is saved.
And Christ alone is the Savior. If you don't understand these most basic truths it is doubtful that one can be saved.

 

No – I take the position that some of your beliefs contradict scripture – a fact that is clearly demonstrable from scripture itself which I have provided repeatedly.

I’ll let God handle the judging there DHK as the job is filled and you don’t have the qualifications.

Nice dodge. However, it does have to do with the fact that everyone great and small will receive either eternal life or eternal damnation based upon their – wait for it – here it comes… WORKS!

A decision is a conscious act of the will and, as such, it is a work. I know that doesn’t fit into your twisted theology, but it is a fact.

The Sermon on the Mount was a public event – there were thousands there – many of whom were not necessarily followers of Christ. If you can prove that everyone in ear shot of Jesus was a disciple and already a believer, then please do so. Otherwise, this is nothing more than your personal opinion. Here it is again.

This is ludicrous and tortured logic. If Jesus was only talking to the disciples whom were already saved (Oops – it looks like Judas was saved as well) then why in the world would Jesus himself say:

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

By your logic at least, the disciples could ignore God’s command here, not forgive others, God would not forgive them, yet they could still enter into heaven without God’s forgiveness. The last time I checked, DHK, no one could enter heaven without God's forgiveness.

And not one of those passages says that we are saved by faith alone. And, might I add, neither do you based upon your many contradictory posting on the subject. I have shown you one place in scripture where the idea of faith alone is clearly shown to be incorrect. Shall I post it again? Why not!

Well…. I’m glad to see that you are making progress there DHK. I mean - admitting to all here that the doctrines of scripture alone and faith alone are man-made philosophies. This really is a red letter day. Mark it on your calendars ladies and gentlemen as history has just been made. :godisgood:

Peace!

 

[/QUOTE]
You don't read well do you? Perhaps you don't read the Bible at all.
Here is what it says:

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Though cognizant of the crowd that had gathered, the entire sermon on the mount was directed to his disciples. He taught THEM (the disciples).

 

Ok ... let me get this straight...
You accept the Word of God as it is written and what it teaches in spite of the way it is written.

So, on the one hand you accept the scripture as it written, yet on the other hand, when it clearly contradicts you, then you accept what it teaches (hmm... who decides that) in spite of the way it is written. Does everyone see this???

Its your man-made doctrine not mine. I don't hold to scripture alone so I need not come to its defense.

Oh really? I've shown you this verse multiple times...
James 2:24 (King James Version)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

No - I have pointed out to you repeatedly that none of them state that we are saved by faith "alone".

Perhaps. However, you might want to take a primer on English!

We are saved by the grace of God and our faith (other than in accepting and cooperating with His grace) has no seminal part in the process. Jesus made the ultimate atonement for our sins - that is what saves us - grace!

So you say DHK.

How arrogant! You actually equate your presonal and fallible interpretation of scripture to God's Word? That is what I proclaimed as trash and I stand by that opinion.

God's Word isn't but your words most certainly are.

Nope - I have said the exact opposite. Please provide quotes or give it up!

I will say this as many times as you state a false doctrine:

Show me from scripture where scripture states that we are saved by faith "alone". You cannot because it isn't, except in one place and that stands in complete opposition to your position. But you know very well don't you DHK?

Nor does it say that "Therefore being justified by faith alone" does it?

Well, that pretty much knocks out free will then doesn't it, DHK? I mean, if we do not cooperate with God's grace then He is forcing Himself upon us.
Really DHK, you are sounding more like a Calvinist by the minute.

Give the self-righteous attitude a break, will ya? What I said in the post was abundantrly clear. How childish.

I agree that salvation is by grace alone and have stated this numerous times.

And you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

What a fresh load that is ... faith and works cannot coexist together?

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

There are many -MANY more DHK.

Peace!

 

He went up on to the mountain so that he could address the multitudes. They (the disciples) simply asked him the question which he answered to all that could hear. That's the way he spoke on many occasions in scripture.

Ultimately, if what you say is true (and it isn't), then the Holy Spirit need not have guided anyone to write this down or to even teach it for that matter. After all, it was only for the diciples wasn't it? This is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself!

Peace!

 

Billy, it is sad that you can't accept the simple gospel account written as it is. If you don't believe what I said, then go check some commentaries out.
The simple truth is that Christ went up to a mountain place--more like the top of a rolling hill. He went there to teach his disciples. That was his first and foremost purpose. But, remember he was very popular, and the crowds followed wherever he went, even when he tried to get away. They found him here teaching his disciples. The crowds grew bigger and bigger as the day wore on. It is doubtful, that although this is the longest sermon of Jesus recorded in the NT, that not all of it is recorded here. The fact is that he was teaching his disciples. The crowds came afterward or gathered as he was teaching his disciples. The teaching was still directed at his disciples. He was teaching his disciples. The Bible says that he was teaching his disciples. If you don't believe the Bible then what will you believe?

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

 

Yeah, according to DHK, Judas must have been saved. In John 6:66 we find many disciples 'departed from Jesus'. They no longer followed Him-you know, because of that pesky teaching on the Eucharist- I guess they were just 'back-sliders' like Judas, eh?

 

Any excuse will do, won't it Lori. Any way that you can find to deny what the Bible says. It plainly says that Jesus went up to a mount and there taught his disciples. You don't want to believe that, so you, like Billy, make excuses to deny what the Scriptures say.
This is truly unbelievable.

 

What is truly unbelievable is your apparent ignorance of how Jesus went about teaching.

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Let’s break it down into the historical context to determine the composition of His audience:

The disciples: This would include the twelve as well as a good number of others.

The multitudes: Jesus often taught his disciples while others listened (Luk 20:45). Perhaps only a small group of disciples gathered to listen when Jesus began speaking, but by the time He finished, many people had joined them.

In other words, DHK, you state that only the disciples were being taught but you derive this from a position of silence. The verse does not say whether or not others were there who were also being taught - it just states that he taught them.

However, if we look at the way Jesus spoke and taught, we can see that there is precedence for the widely accepted idea that there were others in attendance.

Luk 20:45
45 And in the hearing of all the people he said to his disciples,

Hmmm... here, he was saying this to his disciples, yet all of the people were in ear shot [hearing]. This sounds just like the Sermon on the Mount.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

If we do not forgive others, then God will not forgive us. Consequently, if God does not forgive us, we cannot enter into heaven. It’s unambiguous.

You claim that this message was only for the disciples who were already saved, in which case the message is of no import regarding salvation. Yet, this presents a problem with which you have yet to honestly deal.

Either:

1. This message was intended for all peoples, thus it was included in divinely inspired scripture as passed on by the teaching of the apostles.

or

2. It was of no import to the disciples as they were already saved. Thus, the disciples could ignore God’s command here, not forgive others, God would not forgive them, yet they could still enter into heaven without God’s forgiveness, which violates God's requirement that no unclean thing can enter heaven.

I think we all know why you cling to such a skewed interpretation (if you can even call it that) of the passage... and that is, if you admit to point #1 above, then the doctrine of faith alone dies an ignominious death because we are then required to do something in order to be saved - and that something is to forgive others - to love.

Could it be, DHK, that you are just wrong on this one?

Peace!

 

DHK NEVER, EVER ADMITS HE IS WRONG ON ANYTHING! IE: Married priests in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

His arrogance and lack of humility continues to speak loudly of his spiritual condition.

Every time he has been proven wrong beyond any doubt he will then either ignore it or try to divert attention from it.

 

Billy, I do not deny that there was a great crowd there. There was. In fact it was massive. It was a huge crowd of people that had gathered. If the geography of the land is studied, Jesus and his disciples were close to the top of the mount (actually a large hill), and as he taught them his voice carried down to the crowds beneath so that others could hear him as well. You might say that he was in such a position that there were "good acoustics."

But that does not negate the fact that his teaching was primarily directed to Christians, that is, his disciples.
That is often the case even today. In our churches our pastors often "feed the flock," give messages that are directed to teaching the saved, even though there may be some unsaved present. We have unsaved present on Wednesday evenings where the time is spent in Bible study and prayer. Unsaved people feel very awkward during prayer time, but they are there--but not expected to pray.

Yes the sermon on the mount, as the verses you quoted were directed to the disciples in spite of who was there.

This is directed to the disciples; to Christians. An unsaved person does not have the capability of asking forgiveness from God, nor will he ever receive forgiveness from God until he is saved. Asking forgiveness from others is irrelevant to the unsaved. It is not going to earn him brownie points with God. God is not going to forgive him anyway. Not until he goes through the precious blood of Christ, is born again of His Spirit will God forgive him of anything. God won't hear one single prayer of his until he is saved. All prayers and prayers of forgiveness directed to God are dumb or mute as far as God is concerned. He does not hear them.

The verse only applies to believers, another indication that he is speaking to his disciples. The verse is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of a clean heart. One cannot come before God unless he has all sin forgiven. What does the Bible say:

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--God will not hear the believer as long as their is sin in his heart, and that includes the sin of unforgiveness.

That is where you are wrong. It says nothing about entering heaven. This has to do with the Christian walk and one's relationship with God.

Correct, it has nothing to do with salvation; and of no import regarding salvation.

Romans 8:1 says "There is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
--If (before I die) I fail to forgive my brother of some sin, I will still go to heaven. I may lose some reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It may affect my fellowship with God during the time I am angry (if that be the case) with my brother. But it does not affect my salvation.

This has nothing to do with love. Because I do not immediately forgive someone does not mean I do not love them. I love my wife. Is it possible for either a wife or husband to delay forgiveness and still love their spouse. It better be!

No.
Salvation is not by works which is what you imply. That is heresy.
It is through grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

You have not proven me wrong on matters concerning the Bible.
Salvation is not of works, which you believe. That is heresy according to the Bible.

 

Hold on Lori and Billysunday. The problem is DHK is Canadian and lives in a predominately Catholic area. He is in the minority. Now as you know many Catholics are marginally that. They think its ok to sin freely as long as they confess and do it again and their lives are just as sick and decrepid as pagans who lived in the ancient Roman empire maybe even more so since there was a morality to Rome. I've been to Quebec and to quote Obi Wan Kenobi "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." Sadly they are Catholic. Sadly it describes some of my family who are also Catholic.

Now the premise of baptist faith hold to Reformed Theology view that Salvation is attained not by works but by faith. You are questioning the very root of that faith and trying to support it by scriptures supporting the Catholic position in the way a Catholic would interpret it. This type of thing automatically puts DHK on the defensive and the best defence is a good offence.

The truth is that the Catholic church says you enter into the kingdom by way of faith with out works. However, once in the kingdom you must continue in sanctification in order to stay within the realm of Salvation. For a baptist Salvation is a point in time that never changes the persons position once it has occured whether or not you work on sanctification though admittedly the reformed view is that if you are in the kingdom your natural inclination is to behave in a manner pleasing christ. If not your salvation in inquired after. You are in effect questioning the very basis of baptist belief. DHK of course is defending it. However, he misstepped believing that everything you say is wrong. When in reality the basis of what you say is wrong but the particulars can be seen to.

So relax a bit and realize that the moral highground for both groups has been eliminated years ago.

 

"The truth is that the Catholic church says you enter into the kingdom by way of faith with out works. However, once in the kingdom you must continue in sanctification in order to stay within the realm of Salvation. For a baptist Salvation is a point in time that never changes the persons position once it has occured whether or not you work on sanctification though admittedly the reformed view is that if you are in the kingdom your natural inclination is to behave in a manner pleasing christ. If not your salvation in inquired after. You are in effect questioning the very basis of baptist belief. DHK of course is defending it. However, he misstepped believing that everything you say is wrong."

And I'm in agreement with you. What I find interesting is that DHK and others single out the Catholic Church and incinuate that it is the only branch of Christianity that believes that a Christian must persevere to the end to be saved. I prefer to go along with the Bible, the Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of consistent teaching on this.

 

The fact is that what you mean by Perservere and what DHK means by Perservere are two different things. You as a Catholic mean you hold on to the faith until you die maintaining it by living in it. DHK and the Baptist and Reformed community mean that you can't help but maintain the faith until the very end. On one hand you are holding on tight to your faith (Catholic) on the other you are carried away (Reformed) by your faith.

 

That is simply not true! Rome does not teach you enter the kingdom by faith without works. The infant has no faith and baptism administered to him is a work. There is no Biblical precept or example of "proxy faith" toward the gospel or baptism or the Lord's Supper.

I will give you a text that demonstrates Rome/SDA and all those who teach potential apostasy from the state of justification by grace that cannot be answered or refuted. It is not an allegorical or parabolic statement that can be twisted but it is a clear and explicit absolute statement:


Jn6:7 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I gurantee you that any attempted interpretation by any Roman Catholic, SDA or teacher of apostasy will have to repudiate Christ's words found in the bold underscored declaration above. For example:

The Qualified Interpretation: Apostasy teachers try to qualify that statement by verse 40 that it only applies to those who continue believing. However, this is a reversal of the actual stated cause and consquences found in the context.

The Cause of coming to Christ is first being given to Christ by the Father not vice versa - v. 37 "all that the father giveth me shall come to me" - HOW MANY COME? answer: "ALL" the given.

ALL who are given come (v. 37) and "OF ALL" or out of all who are given NONE are lost (v. 29) and ALL who are given are raised (v. 39b) and therefore all who are believing in Christ HAD BEEN GIVEN by the Father to come to Christ in faith.

You cannot use parables, spiritualizations, allegorical passages, ambiguous texts to over turn clear explicit precepts and John 6:37-40 is a clear explicit unambigious absolute precept.

 

Understood. But since DHK (Baptist) and the Reformed usually totally ignore any writings outside of the bible they have no way of knowing if the earliest of Christians held the reformed view or the Catholic view. You and I have read the Early Church Fathers and know they held the Catholic belief.

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).