Joseph & OT Law

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by College_Gurl, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. College_Gurl

    College_Gurl
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    Ok, hang in here w/ me, I'm gonna try & explain this the best I can.
    Ok, my pastor recently preached a sermon on Joseph, on how he was a just/righteous man of God. How he was of good status & so on.
    I asked him after the sermon if Joseph really was a man of God & a just/righteous man. Then why didn't he eat w/ the unclean & tax collectors, etc...? He said that Joseph had to keep the law, & was so obedient to the OT Law that it would go against God for him to do such a think like eat or talk to the unclean people. So, I really don't understand why Jesus ate w/ the sinners & so on. So, what made Joseph any different than Jesus. I just can't grab why. I would think that those people would be the ones that needed Jesus the most. Joseph only mingled w/ the people just like him. So, can anybody maybe clear up this mess in my brain!!! Thanks
     
  2. StefanM

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    Which Joseph are you talking about?
     
  3. College_Gurl

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    Sorry, Joseph & Mary, Jesus M & D.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Is this found in the Law of God or is this one of the many things the Jews observed that had no basis in the Law?
     
  5. Marcia

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    Where is all this information on Joseph coming from? I don't see it in the Bible. It says he was righteous, a descendant of David, was a carpenter, and he's part of the Nativity story, but other than that, there's not much about him.

    Jesus wasn't disobeying God by eating with sinners. Jesus never disobeyed God. Jesus did go against some of the man-made rules of the Pharisees. They took what God said about being unclean and applied more rules.
     
  6. Joseph M. Smith

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    I agree with Marcia. There is precious little information about Joseph in the NT, and simply to tag him as "righteous" does not tell us anything about his table manners! Not to be frivolous, but it is always important to work only with the evidence and leave the inferences off to the side.
     
  7. College_Gurl

    College_Gurl
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    Hold on just one second! Sorry if ya think I stated that Jesus was sinning or disobeying God by eating w/ the sinners. I was saying that why couldn't Joseph eat w/ the tax collectors if Jesus did it. Jesus set the perfect example by going & reaching the lost. Jesus never sinned, like I said he set the bar w/o sinning.

    Give me to tomorrow & I will have all the whole sermon on here for you guys, ok. So, you can fully understand what I am trying to ask. I'll try to get it tonight if any way possible. Thanks
     
  8. College_Gurl

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    Ok here is his sermon outline if ya can make anything out of it! Took out some little extra stuff, that didn't apply to topic.
    I also figured out from talking to another friend that Jesus was fulfilling the law not to change it. so, answers a little bit of question.

    Unselfish Joseph Lowery
    Matthew 1:18-25 12/03/06 a.m.

    Unselfish Joseph
    Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. [19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. [20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. [21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. …

    [24] Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: [25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
    "I'm pregnant"
    Joseph is mulling this over- Lesson to be learned about righteousness and Christmas
    Matthew 1:18–19 tells us: "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous/just man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly."
    Joseph was a righteous man.
    Hebrew word for a righteous man is tsaddîyq.
    uncompromising obedience to the Torah, the law of Moses.
    Scott McKnight, a New Testament scholar.)
    He didn’t eat unclean food. He didn't mix with the wrong kinds of people. He didn't keep his carpentry shop open on the Sabbath to make a few extra drachmas.
    He was a tsaddîyq; that was his identity.
    ham sandwiches with tax collectors and prostitutes.

    Star, Athlete, important Label
    an Israelite wanted to be a tsaddîyq
    admired and looked up to. - somebody.
    .
    problem. The girl he has promised to marry is going to have a baby, and whoever the father is, Joseph knows it's not him. Nazareth

    The Torah -instructions about what to do to somebody in Mary's condition. Deuteronomy 22 covers marriage violation. If a woman pledged to be married is unfaithful, it says:
    "She shall be brought to the door of her father's house, and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge this evil from among you."

    clear. Joseph's reputation. His fellow tsaddîyqim would have told him this sin must be publicly exposed and punished.

    But Joseph couldn't bring himself to do this.

    agonized over this day after day.
    angel comes to him, Joseph already knows Mary is pregnant.
    How did he find out? Mary would have told him. Put yourself in his place.

    Imagine how she must have protested to him about her innocence. Imagine Joseph's struggle. Most likely his father had arranged the marriage. He probably did not know her terribly well at this point. She seemed to be sincere. But an angel? A virgin birth? No way. So he decides to divorce her quietly, the text says. A betrothal was a legal act in that day, so to end it required an act of divorce. That way he could minimize her suffering but maintain his status as a tsaddîyq, a righteous man.
    Then God sends a message to Joseph: "After he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream." Why did God make Joseph wait till after he had to think and struggle with all this stuff? Why couldn't an angel come to him ahead of time and explain everything and remove that anxiety?
    Is it possible that anxiety removal is not God's number one goal for Joseph—or maybe for you and me? Is it possible that in getting his world turned upside down, in having to struggle between what he thought a tsaddîyq—a righteous man—ought to do, and his longing to show compassion to this young girl, maybe Joseph was being prepared by God to come to a new understanding of what righteousness is?
    Is it possible there's a ministry of disequilibrium God is allowing to take place in Joseph's life so he'll come to a new era of growth? Is it possible in your life, maybe right now? If you're confused or disoriented or uncertain about something, maybe it's not because you've done something wrong. Maybe you're about to grow. Maybe what you need to do is wait on God and trust God's going to do something in your life you don't even know about yet!
    A New Definition of Righteousness
    The angel says, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife." Why would Joseph be afraid to wed Mary? Of course Joseph would be afraid of offending God and violating the Torah, but it's not just that. Joseph would be afraid of losing his reputation.

    He would be afraid of what everybody would think about him. Joseph knew about his own doubts when Mary told him about the angel. There's no way people in his town were going to believe an angel came to a poor couple in an obscure village and caused the conception of a child in the body of a virgin teenage girl. He knew that if he married her, his friends would never accept his account of what happened. He would not be invited to their homes, he would not be given their business, and he would never again be admired and respected as a lover of the Torah. If he committed himself to this baby—to the one who would be known as Jesus—he would do so at enormous sacrifice. His whole reputation, the work of a lifetime, would be trashed.
    Since that time, millions of people have made sacrifices for the sake of this one called Jesus. Many have given up status, possessions, convenience, freedoms, even their lives.
    Joseph, who gave up his identity and reputation for Jesus
    They never looked at him with the same respect and adoration.
    Later, when Joseph was long dead and Jesus was a grown man, he taught in Matthew 5:20, "Unless your righteousness passes that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law"—the old system—"you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Jesus must have been thinking inside, I've seen the better kind of righteousness firsthand; Joseph was such a man.
    die to reputation and status and comfort for the sake of love.
    When Joseph made the decision to wed Mary, he thought it was the end of his being known as a righteous man. He did not know fully that the child he would adopt would bring to the human race a new kind of righteousness. That's what we celebrate this Christmas.
    JOHN ORTBERG

    Self Sacrificing
    Self Control
    Denial

    Unselfish Joseph
    Unselfish God
     
  9. mountainrun

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    I searched and didn't find any OT Biblical prohibition regarding eating with anyone. The sermon goes beyond what we know about Joseph and if he DID eat with sinners it didn't make him any more unrighteous that it did Jesus, which was not at all.

    MR
     
  10. Joseph M. Smith

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    I believe, from looking at the outline, that the pastor is drawing an inference rather than stating a known fact. He is saying that under Jewish practice a person called righteous would not have eaten with sinners, etc., but that Jesus came to expand our understanding of righteousness to a positive thing, not a negative one.

    Again, the preacher's strategy involves intuiting "what must have been" rather than declaring it to be an objectively observable report.
     
  11. LeBuick

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    You said that right! One thing I see regarding the OT is man misunderstood or misapplied many of the "laws". That is one of the reasons we could not live according to the law, we rarely if ever properly understood them.

    Like defiling the sabbath. Jesus healed the lame man and let his disciples pick corn. We still didn't get it when Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

    Associating with unclean has more to do with not conforming to their ways than it does you becoming unclean by association. If you could become unclean by association then it would say the blood of Jesus doesn't have staying power...

    I didn't read his sermon, these are just my thoughts...
     
  12. Aaron

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    I see nothing in the sermon about Joseph eating or not eating with anyone. It says he didn't "mix" with the wrong kind of people. In otherwords, as I take it, he didn't develop friendships with immoral or pagan people.

    That's a NT standard as well. Be not deceived, evil communications corrupt good manners. 1 Cor. 15:33.
     
  13. College_Gurl

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    I now understand that Jesus came to fulfill the law & not to change it (matthew 5:17-18):
    TO FULFILLThe word fulfill means "to fill out, expand, or complete." It does not mean to bring to an end. Jesus fulfills the law in several ways: (1) He obeyed it perfectly and taught its correct meaning (vv. 19, 20); (2) He will one day fulfill all of the Old Testament types and prophecies; and (3) He provides a way of salvation that meets all the requirements of the law (Rom. 3:21, 31). [Nelson SB] Fulfill: Jesus fulfilled the Law in the sense that he gave it its full meaning. He emphasized its deep, underlying principles and total commitment to it rather than mere external acknowledgment and obedience. [NIV SB] To fulfil. "to make full," "to fill full." By fulfilling the law Christ simply "filled" it "full" of meaning--by giving men an example of perfect obedience to the will of God, in order that the same law "might be fulfilled [pleroo] in us" (Rom. 8:3, 4). [SDA Commentary]

    So, that is why Jesus could eat w/ sinners, & Joseph could not. B/c Joseph had to keep the O.T. Law to not disobey God. Am I getting there finally?
     

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