Jude 4

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

    Had this text said.....

    "For there are certain men accepted among us, who were before of old ordained to this salvation."

    .....it would be hailed by Calvinists as proof positive that God had predestinated these men to be saved.

    Why, then, are all but a spatter of Calvinists unwilling to say that Jude teaches predestination to damnation?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
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    Because we are sinners by nature. We are not believers by nature. We don't have to be born again in order to rebel against God. We have to be born again, have our souls resurrected to new life, to repent and believe. Salvation and damnation are not symmetrical. But I do respect those Calvinists that believe that they are symmetrical.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Ken,

    I'm not interested in all your fine spun philosophical quibble - deal with the text. The text says,

    "who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation."

    Which is not one bit different than if he'd said,

    "who were before of old ordained to this salvation."

    Explain to me, on the basis of the text, not your pre-canned answers, why I shouldn't believe Jude was not talking about predestination to condemnation.

    Mark Osgatharp

    [ October 10, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
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    All godless men are condemned. God determined before the creation that all of the godless would be condemned. But God did not make them godless, but He did ordain their punishment.

    If you want to defend double predestination, that's fine with me. Or if you want to argue against double predestination, then you'll have to find a forum with a double predestinationist in it. But I don't recall there being any double predestinationists in this forum.

    If according to your thinking, you wish to argue that we are being inconsistent by not being double predestinationists, then I for one will plead guilty to your charge - according to your way of thinking. [​IMG]

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ October 10, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Ken,

    Thank you! You have proven that a Calvinist can correctly interpret a passage when necessity dictates it. You say that,

    "who were before of old ordained to the condemnation" means "all godless men are condemned. That was decided before they became godless."

    Amen! brother, Amen! And I contend that,

    "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" simply means that "all godly men are elected - that was decided before they were elected."

    So Paul did not teach personal predestination to salvation any more than Jude taught personal predestination to damnation. Both did teach categorical predestination, Paul asserting that God predestined salvation to be in Christ and Jude teaching that God predestined condemnation for those out of Christ.

    None of this even touches on which individuals are in Christ or not. That is something that is decided when a person trusts in Christ and is thus numbered among the elect or else dies in impenitence and thus is permanently numbered among the damned.

    This is proven by one simple statement of Paul, found in the end of Romans, that some of his brethren in the flesh were "in Christ BEFORE" himself.

    So we see that categorical election indeed was from the foundation of the world, or as Jude puts it, "before of old," while personal election is in time, when a person believes.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Mark said:
    How were they ordained to this condemnation?... Since they are not of the elect spoken of in Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified... or spoken of in...

    Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    So being not of the elect they were left where they were in their sins ordained to this condemnation... They were not foreordained either because that only applies to one.

    I Peter 1: 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Mark said:
    I've never heard of catagorical election and personal election... Brother Glen of the Primitive Baptist brethren... Election is election according to Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)... Those that are not called are not elected. Those elected were saved in Jesus Christ. Elected before they were born saved in time... That is my understanding of election... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  8. KenH

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    You're most certainly welcomed, Mark. [​IMG] Please let me know if I can be of any further interpretive help to you.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  9. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    On the "opposite end," Mark, please explain this verse to me:

    Acts 13:48b - "...And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

    Just curious, since it doesn't say that as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.

    Rev. G
     
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    ‘ . . . who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.' The A.V., R.S.V. and K.J.V. all use the word "ordained . . . ' [Jude 4]

    Three Greek scholars, Drs. A.T. Robertson, Kenneth S. Wuest, and S.T. Bloomfield say the same thing. {my statement}

    The Greek word is ‘prographo' meaning to write beforehand. The word means ‘to write, designate or declare beforehand.' "Elect In The Son" by Robert Shank, Bethany House Publishers. He continues by saying, ‘There is no warrant for any assumption (implied especially in A.V.'s "ordained") that the word somehow requires the predetermination of the historical personal identities of the "ungodly persons" referred to by Jude.

    Bloomfield comments, the expression {progegrammenoi eis touto to krima} does not imply any predestination of the persons, but merely imports that they were long since foretold, and thereby designated, as persons who should suffer. 24 pg. 191

    Bloomfield continues, the words hoi palai progegrammenoi simply reflect the fact that the wicked careers and just condemnation of such men were foretold by Enoch (vs. 14f.- 19) and others of old.

    On these difficult passages we as men and women of God have to turn to those who perhaps know more about the language of the Biblical writers than we do. The translators of these versions have done the Christian Church an injustice at times in writing down what they thought the Greek manuscripts really said. {my comments}

    Wuest's translation reads, ‘For certain men entered surreptitiously who were of old predicted with reference to this judgment. (men) destitute of reverential awe towards God, putting anarchy in the place of the grace of God, and denying the only absolute Master and our Lord Jesus Christ.'

    God has always known that these false teachers would be outside of saving grace. Their rebellion in their lifetime was the reason for the slidding into Hell; lets not blame God for appointing these people to everlasting fire. {my comments}
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    The word for "as were ordained" can be translated "as many as ordained themselves." People disagree with that, but the word teragmenoi can take the middle tense. (It can also take the passive tense as well, but the option for translating to the middle is there.)
     
  12. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    That would be nice, except for the fact that it then wrenches the verse out of context.

    Rev. G
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    In what way? Seems like a great fit, especially considering one of the previous verses: Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles."

    The Jews rejected the eternal life, so why couldn't the Gentiles accept it?
     
  14. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    "And as many as appointed themselves to eternal life believed." Doesn't make sense. The whole thing with the Jews rejecting it gets into a discussion of Romans 9-11, and I'm pretty sure I know where that discussion will get us. Absolutely nowhere, because we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on the matter. So, anyway, thanks for the discussion. Hope you have a great day tomorrow, brother!

    Rev. G
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    It doesn't make sense within your theological framework, but it makes sense within the passage as a whole.
     
  16. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Why is it that all do not "appoint" themselves to eternal life?

    When viewing scripture in this way we ultimately trace our steps back to the entrance of sin into man through the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we then find ourselves standing on a muddy slope proclaiming our Sovereign God was out flanked by satan when the first man Adam took the fruit and did eat.

    Satan is wiser than Daniel; so I am certain his wisdom is greater than mine; it is of no matter to him how he is able to deceive me; if he uses the human emotion involved in "...don't you want to be in heaven with Jesus, grandma, grandpa,...?

    Plainly put out the word of God;

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,(the beast out of the sea), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev. 13.8

    "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22.11

    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." 22.17

    Who is "...him that heareth"? when the Gospel is published so broadly who does not hear it?

    Who is "...whosoever will..." except that it be "...him that is athirst..." "...let him take the water of life freely."

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas

    [ October 11, 2002, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     

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