Judge Not? You Must! Mixed Messages?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Tom Butler, Jan 17, 2011.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    In another thread, BobinKy cited this quote. I'm sure that this view is based on a couple of scriptures:

    Matthew 7:1 Judge not that ye be not judged.

    Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

    Then, we have I Corinthians 6:1-3

    1 How can any one of you with a case against another dare to bring it to the unjust for judgment instead of to the holy ones? 2 Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? If the world is to be judged by you, are you unqualified for the lowest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not everyday matters?

    I underlined verse three. which clearly says we are to judge.

    I also understand the context is a dispute between two believers, and Paul is saying the believers ought to ask the church to judge instead of secular courts.

    But in judging the dispute, the members are required to judge motives, as well as right and wrong.

    In I Cor 5, Paul calls on the congregation to expel a member involved in sexual sin. In other words, to pass judgment. In still other words, to be judgmental.

    In Matthew 18, Jesus specifically instructs the disciples regarding an offending member. In other words, to pass judgment. In still other words, take it to the church for judgment.

    In more than one of his letters, Paul addressed the recipients as brothers, as the elect, as beloved of God. Clearly, Paul has passed judgment on their salvation experiences and deemed them valid.

    I think the scriptures don't conflict, so there is some explanation that will resolve these apparent differences.

    Wanna take a crack at this?

    Release the hounds.
     
    #1 Tom Butler, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011
  2. annsni

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    Well, as I've told others, take a look at the entire passage where it says not to judge:

    Matthew 7 - 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."

    Luke 6 " 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
    39He also told them a parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. 41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye."

    See? We ARE to still help our brother take the speck out of his eye - after we are sure we've taken care of our own eye first.

    No where are we told that it is wrong to judge. We need to judge sin in order to be able to tell the unsaved that they are in need of a savior and we are clearly told in 1 Corinthians 5:12 " Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" We ARE to make a judgment - we are just not the exocutioner, so to speak of those outside the church but for those inside, we are.
     
  3. mets65

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    If you don't want to be judged then don't judge, but if you do judge then you better be prepared to be judged. I guess in other words you better take a look at yourself before you start worrying about the behavior of others.
     
  4. Salty

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    Very well put!
     
  5. BobinKy

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  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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  7. BobinKy

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    Sorry, but to take in the true meaning, you need the words and images and music. Kinda like bird watching and asking the bird to make the entry in the field notebook. Nice idea, but it does not work that way.

    However, Tom, I will say a few words because you live in Kentucky, you asked me nicely, and Land Between the Lakes is one of my favorite places.

    The title of the song is Born Again and all of the images accompanying the song are of people being baptized, but not in church baptisteries. We should not spend our time and energies judging and criticizing others; we should spend our time and energies telling others about Christ and His wonderful salvation, and helping the saved live the first and second commandments (Matt. 22:36-40).

    . . .

    This is my last post on BB, except for what I am researching and posting on the Elders of Israel thread. After that thread--I will move on to other projects. BB has been a learning experience and I have tried to make it fun while injecting a bit of myself into what I post.

    May God bless everyone here at BB.

    ...Bob



    [​IMG]

    BobinKy likes to observe the night sky with telescopes and binoculars and star charts.




    [​IMG]

    BobinKy plans to read the complete works of Shakespeare (again).




    [​IMG]

    BobinKy plans to do more personal evangelism.




    [​IMG]

    BobinKy plans to spend extra time working in the yard.
     
    #7 BobinKy, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2011
  8. quantumfaith

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    My two cents.

    The "judging" that we as believers are called to do with respect to individuals is to confront blatant and or intentional issues which can and do affect the health and "good name" of the church.

    We should "judge" the "generality" of sin and morality in our culture and take public stances against such, while leaving the job of "individual" judgement in the hands of God, who is the ONLY one who can see the hearts of man.
     
  9. HankD

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    After the log in our own eye is removed then we can see (as ann pointed out).

    ...by their fruits you shall know them...

    If there is no fruit on a tree you must make a judgement.

    There is no judgment needed when you see peaches on a tree, you know it's a peach tree.

    HankD
     
  10. stilllearning

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    Hello mets65

    For me at least, this has nothing to do with.....“worrying about the behavior of others”;
    But caring enough about others, to warn them about their destructive behavior......
    Proverbs 27:5
    “Open rebuke [is] better than secret love.”
     
  11. mets65

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    Just be open to being rebuked.
     
  12. freeatlast

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    Tom the passage in matt does not stop with Judge not. Also the word judge has a wide range of meaning. In the context of this passage it is warning not to make a decision about another without first being sure that your own life is right. Then come along side and show them the correct path. It is not a command to never judge. It was dealing with the hypocritical Pharisees who thought that they were next to set on the throne and everyone else were dung. That is the warning.
    We of the church however are to make judgments based on scripture and always being mindful that what and who we are dealing with is being done so in the Lord while our own lives have to be in order with Him.
    satan has taken this passage in Matt. and twisted to so far that the church no longer wants to do the Lord's calling. The super self righteous go around and profess themselves righteous by saying "judge not less you be judged." Or I do not judge anyone. Or God is my judge not you or something like these. All the time not knowing that those who hold these sayings are being judged by the judge of creation because of their self righteousness.
    Most people do not want to judge because thye do not want to have their own life looked at. These are those who have fell to satan. We are to be the salt and light as well as the ones who hold up the standards of the Lord confronting (judging) sin in ourselves first and our brothers and sisters second.
     
    #12 freeatlast, Jan 18, 2011
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  13. stilllearning

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    I love being rebuked by the truth......
    Ecclesiastes 7:5
    “[It is] better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Many times I don’t even respond to people, who are not open to be rebuked:
    Being rebuked, is like receiving a precious gift.......
    Matthew 7:6
    “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
     
  14. calvin

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    i would be happy to. we are only supposed to judge those that are of the household of faith. not those without. and we can never judge a persons eternal destiny. that my friend is up to the Creator. we are obligated if we see a brother in sin to warn him once, take another believer with us, and warn him twice. the third time it is to be brought to the elders in the Church. and if he/she will still not lisen to the Church, let them be treated as an unbeliever or a heathen. in other words, have nought to do with them, so that they may be ashamed and hopefully return repentant. as far as their eternal standing with God. no, that is between them and Him. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Alcott

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    He'e come da judge! He'e come da judge!
    "You're judging me!"
    "And you're judging me by saying I'm judging you!"

    This gets silly sometimes. 'Don't judge if you don't want to be judged' is simple enough. We maintain our arsenals in our memory cells to illustrate this. At a family gathering I once brought up an old incident that was embarrassing to my brother; as if I didn't know he would bring up something similar about me, which he did. But it was my fault for starting the thing. That may not be exactly "judging," but it does illustrate how there is 'ammo' [faults to attack] to use, but if you don't want a shot fired at you, don't fire first. Or, if you have skeletons in your own closet, don't be picking somebody else's bones.
     
  16. freeatlast

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    I agree with you mostly, and more importantly the bible does also, but the part not to judge a person destiny the bible takes issue if you mean we are not to express the lost state of a person even when they claim to be saved. I know this if it were me and someone felt i was lost based on scripture and did not tell me i would be very unhappy if they are correct. If they are not then they cannot cause me to be, but it might cause me to examine myself as to why I made them feel I was lost and correct my life to honor the Lord.
    Second we have examples ot those who confronted people with their false claim unto salvation. Acts is a good place to read. So should we confront a claimed believer if we suspect them to be lost? absolutely yes in much love and biblical explanation. We can know them by their fruit. A good tree cannot prodce bad fruit. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     
  17. calvin

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    and i my friend would agree with much of what you say. but where does it say in the bible we can judge a persons salvation? how can you determine the point at which a person is deemed "lost?" and must confront them. on the contrary, i believe the bible clearly states we can judge a persons temporal state, but not their eternal destiny. if you meet a stranger for the first time, who claims to be a Christian, but lives like the world. how do you know that you are not dealing with a new convert? were you perfect after your conversion? was i? no. and i am far from it. we are not even allowed to judge ourselves as to our final state. we can judge ourselves weather we are at this moment living for the Lord or not. and it would be a fearful thing to die at that moment if we are not. i think you are pointing in acts to the story of simon the magician, and annanias and saphira. correct? where does it state any of these three were eternally lost after their conversion. harsh temporal judment yes. but their eternal destiny?? no one can say. :type:
     
    #17 calvin, Jan 18, 2011
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  18. freeatlast

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    [SIZE=+0]I hear what you are saying and I do get a lot of criticism on this issue and how I believe about this. However scripture does say that we are to know and can know. We can know them by their fruits. I would agree that someone who has just been converted may give signs of it not happening, if it is a momentary meeting but I have found that even a new convert when confronted about sin is open to correction.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]Several years ago I was in down town Houston. A young man came up to me and told me a story how he had just gotten out of jail and was broke. He said that while he was in jail he became a Christian and showed excitement. He asked me if I could help him with a dollar. However at the same time while talking to me he used the Lord's name in vain at one point. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]I said this to him. You just told me that you had just become a Christian and now you use the name of the Lord in vain? He immediately became broken and apologized. We talked for a short time, I gave him his request and he went on. Now if you say to me can know if he was saved or not the answer is no, not in that short encounter and what took place, but my guess is that he was by how he responded.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]On the same token if this same person had become upset when I confronted him I would say he is lost. While in some instances we might be left with some doubt one way or the other there are those who we can know are lost even when they claim to be saved. If a person's practice is to sin the scripture says that they are lost. It gives no exceptions. I believe the scripture. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]I often give this example what it means to practice sin. If you are really saved and those who know you see or hear you sin they will be shocked. In fact you yourself will be shocked as well as embarrassed, and mostly, sorrowful towards the Lord. However if a person who is well known sins and no one is shocked because his actions are his habit then that person is lost. What we practice gives evidence as to who we are united with, Christ or the devil. It does not take huge glaring sins, or huge glaring righteous deeds, just the practice of either and their true nature is brought to light. That is not my teaching that is the word of God and I stand on it.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]So I have told any number of people this. Some I have told that it was my opinion that they were really not saved. Some I have told that they need to look into the bible and check to see if they are really saved. Then I have told some point blank that they are lost asking them if they would like to repent and come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0]For those who are timid about such things I would tell them avoid such confrontations but I have the faith to do this and while I do not go around looking for people to confront and speak clearly to I will continue to do so with complete faith that I am in obedience to the intent of scripture and the will of God. However I do thank you for bringing it up. I always revisit my stand on the issue when brought up.[/SIZE]
     
  19. calvin

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    Hi Free at last. you stated he took the Lords Name in vain? do you mean he cussed? this is not what it is to take the Lords Name in vain. its much deeper than that. it may help to do a study from Jewish authors as to the meaning of the commandments. i know military chaplains who kinda have a potty mouth. cussing is a kinda superficial way, in my estimation to know if someone is saved or not. i would go deeper. are they attempting to divest themselves with Gods grace, of their sins. are they practicing the law of Love in James. do they love the Bretheren. ok so the person may have a problem with bad language. others have a problem with eating too much. are you going to go up to an overweight person, and tell them they are not saved, because they practice gluttony? goodness, could be a thyroid problem. we really dont know. and maybe someone you confront who is saved has a problem with pride, in which case, they would get a little defensive about your confrontation. you cant know the persons heart. you cannot know their standing with God. the only thing you can do, is to correct something that is not in keeping with Christian Character. there is not one verse in the scriptures that gives you the right, to determine their final destiny. on the contrary, it states to take heed, lest "you" fall. i have enough of my own misdeeds to answer for, before i start making assumptions about others, and where they may or may not be going when they die. :thumbsup:
     
  20. calvin

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    also my friend, its not a bad idea to make sure you are walking uprightly before correcting someone else. i can give a good example. early on in my walk, i had a lady who condemned me because i happen to like to wear my hair long. she stated i was not saved because i had long hair. ok. she had hers shorter than most mens, but i wont judge her on that, i dont care. however. some years went by. this "dear" sister, never did accept me. then something interesting happened. she was found to be in an adulterous relationship with a married man. when confronted, she chose excommunication. the little moral of the story is, whenever i meet someone who is very judgemental, and continually correcting others, i really have to wonder....hmmm? wonder what they are hiding. just some food for thought. :wavey:
     

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