Judgement Seat of Christ

I don't set my doctrine on one and only one verse.
It is to easy to misunderstand one verse.

av1611jim: "Just exactly where do you get the idea that
christians get only good things when judged
at the JOC?"

I presume you mean "Christian" and JSOC = Judgement Seat
of Christ? I'll not be able to answer you question here
in full, for there are too many scriptures that can be
used here, a vast majority of scriptures. So i get
my ideas that Chrsitians get only good things when
judged at the JSOC from many places, the preprodance of
Scripture lending toward that conclusion.
I'd be glad to list all the scriptures that lend toward
my conclusion, but i doubt if i can get you to sit still
for 3 to 5 years. And i have to go to work from
time to time in any case.

Do you believe a person is saved by Jesus alone
without any work? I believe even repentance and faith
are NOT works. All this is taught in multiple places in
the Holy Bible. This is a trick question and if you don't
answer it, that will be used against you more than if
you answer the question wrong. If you don't agree
with my answer to the Jesus alone qustion, no works positon
then we are way off on different pages and probably should
waste our time talking to each other.

I see you construe "reward" different from me.
Because there are only the redeemed of the ages at
the Judgement Seat of Christ, that only good rewards will
be given. For Jesus will have cleansed all His Own of
their sins. There will be no sin in heaven, where the JSOC
takes place.

BTW, i do teach a 100% works salvation.
That is, 100% of the works that save have already
been done by Jesus. We do 0% of the works, Jesus does 100%.

In Revelation chapter 7 we see unnumbered saints of the ages
gathered around the throne of heaven. The 144,000 probably
just raputared messanic Jewwish Israeli elect saints
are positively rewarded by being allowed to accompany Jesus
and minister for him on the earth during the Tribulation
Period Judgements.

 

Ed,

Of course, God is love and mercy. BUT..... Christ preached on hell more than heaven while He was on earth 2,000 years ago. In fact, Christ preached on hell more than any pastors preaching on hell. Why? Because Christ is very concerning and care of us, that He does not want us go to hell. He always emphasis to us, repent of sins and follow him.

It is true, that God is love and mercy, BUT... God is justified to judge all people, He is no respect of any persons - Romans 2:11. God shall HAVE TO judge us all people no matter what. Because He is holy. We all shall be trembling face Christ judge us in the judgment day.

Apostle Paul tells us, that we are in the race right now - 1 Cor. 9:24-27. Paul said, if he failed in the race, he might be CASTAWAY! Also, there is another verses relate with the race - Matt. 7:13-14 and Luke 13:24. Christ tells us of Luke 13:24 many who are struggling in the road, many will not make it, mean, they are already CASTAWAY!

Yes, no question, I strong believe that Christ would be HATE to cast his children into the outer darkness because of disobedience. I am sure Christ is weeping over his children who are disobedience him, and not follow him today. That why, Christ always emphasis on repentance to us in the Bible, also, 2 Peter 3:9 emphasis us, that Christ does NOT want anyone of us as Christians or unbelievers go to perish, but want ALL come to REPENTANCE. That why Christ warned us about hell alot than heaven, because of His love.

On Matthew 8:12...you said,

Christ tells us, very clear either Jew or Gentiles over the world as kingdom(please read whole context of Matthew 13:37-43, Christ said, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field IS the WORLD; the GOOD SEED ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM; but the tares are the children of the wicked one." - Matt 13:37-38.

Very clear of Matt 8:12 tells us, God's people will be cast into the outer darkeness bedause of their disobedience and without repentance.


Frogman,

Matthew 24:24 warns us, it is POSSIBLE that the VERY ELECT would be deceived for believing in false teachings, miracles, wonders.

Rev. 13:13 tells us, Antichrist shall do miracles, wonders, and will deceived the world, BUT, it is POSSIBLE that many Christians will be deceived by Antichrist for believing in his lie of miracles, signs, wonders, and worshipping him.

2 Thess. 2:9-12 IS A VERY SERIOUS WARNING to us, when once after Satan being loose out of the way, God will send strong delusion to people, those who are UNrighteousness and do not love the truth, and shall believe in Satan's miracles, signs, and wonders, will send them into hell. Yes, it is POSSIBLE for Christians to believe Satan's lie.

2 Thess 2:9-13 seems speak to the unsaved only, NOT to Christians as elect. Well..

Look at 2 Thess 2:13-14 tells us, we must give thankful to God that we are God's elect because He haved called us by through salvation in Jesus Christ. LOOOOOK verse 15 saying, "THERFORE, brethren, STAND FAST AND HOLD the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Why does Paul tells us, that we must stand fast and hold the truths of the Bible? Because Paul tells us many shall be falling away - verse 3. 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; and 4:3-4 telling us, in the last days, MANY Christians shall depart from the truth, depart from faith. SO, yes it will be POSSIBLE for any Christians to be deceived by Satan for believing in his lie of any wonders, signs, miracles. EVEN, any Christians might worshipping Satan as Antichrist, or receive the mark of the beast, GO to everlasting fire - Rev. 14:9-12!!

Nations is us as we are American. America is a nation. Many Christians are dwelling in many nations. Yes, Satan shall deceived the world either unbelievers or believers. Satan don't care which religion we are are. He wants to deceived us ALL as he wants to.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I do realize that there are different words used for judgment in the Bible. I guess I should have clarified my statement a little bit more. I was asking the question in reference to these types of comments

Of which I received this response.

However, since there are different words used for judgment how can you say that we will face the judgment seat of Christ and get bad rewards and compare that to the chastisment of the Lord?

The word used in Hebrews means to "train." God "judges" us, or disciplines (trains) us here on earth in order to teach us, not to "penalize" us for what we have done. The idea of a "reward," whether good or bad has no use for "training." Our life here on earth is over, we need no more instruction for it. We are now rewarded, not to train us but for the deeds we have done. How can we be "rewarded" for bad things if God has already forgiven them?

The Bible says the wages of sin is death, not a bad reward. Once we receive forgiveness for sin and receive eternal life, that debt has been paid. We cannot be punished with just retribution for something Christ's blood has already forgiven. I believe in our legal system we refer to that as "double jeopardy" and that is certainly not a Scriptural doctrine.

~Lorelei

 

Great! Just great. I just spent 2 hours proving Ed does not understand and this crazy BB disappeared it! AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!
Jim

 

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Lacy </font>[/QUOTE]Intersting use of the
the scripture to lie.
</font>[/QUOTE]What lie? I just posted a scripture? No commentary, no lie unless you consider the Bible a lie? It's an interesting reaction to a verse.

Thanks. I thought he was saying that the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That makes sense?

I've tried to demolish it myself. I guess I missed those verses. We haven't even scratched the surface of the proof texts for millennial exclusion. I suggest you get to know your opponents arguments before you attempt to "debate". I'm not trying to be smart but here is a good place to start.

Harvest Baptist

Sticks and stones (and ugly names) are not nice.

I assume by "neo" you somehow think that this doctrine is new. Sadly mistaken. (Whether by ignorance or by choice, I cannot judge.) On the link I provided are dozens of men (mostly Baptist) who have taught it for years. You just have apparently lost some of your "tradition"

Lacy

edited to shorten URL

[ May 13, 2004, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

I don't say it. The Bible says it. 2 Cor 5:9-11

When my Daddy used to "train" me it sure felt like punishment (penalizing).

You say "reward" has no use for training. Show me that in the Bible. I can show you verse after verse where God uses the promise of reward (+&-) to motivate his children. It is not up to us to decide whether God will reward bad deeds done after salvation at the JSOC. It is up to God.
And no amount of semantic wriggling can get us out from under clear scriptural proofs.

How can God not chasten us for doing the very things he warned us not to do lest he chasten us?

The disobedient Christians in Corinth tasted death (bodily) for their sins and they were as saved as you and I are. Of course we can be punished. Read Heb 10:25-30 and 12:7-29.

If you adopted a child and he said, "You can't spank me because you've adopted me." What would you do? Double jeopardy? The hide would be tanned! If we are obedient children we won't be punished. Same with God.

1 Cor 11:"29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Lacy

 

I gave you the list. Make of it what you will. Since this BB disappeared my work, I am only listing them again with no comment, nor any expositional preaching.
Mt 24:44-51.
Rom. 14:10-12
1 Cor. 3:8-20
1 Cor. 9:24-27
2 Cor. 5:9-11
Gal. 6:5-9
Eph. 5:1-5
Phil. 2:12-16
Col. 3:23-25
1 Tim. 6:11-12
Titus 3:8
Heb. 3:12-4:16
Heb. 6:9-15
Heb. 10:19-31
Heb. 12 (all of it)
James 2:8-13
1 Peter 4:17-18
2 Peter 1:5-11
2 Peter 3:11-17
Rev. 3:19-21
Rev. 20:12-15
Rev. 22:12-14
Many, many more, but these will get you started.
I also listed many men throughout the ages who wrote of these things. Many, from Polycarp to Panton and Spurgeon. This is not new, but perhaps it is time for the gospel of the Kingdom to be preached before the end of all things, hmmm?
Just a thought.
Jim

 

And no amount of semantic wriggling can get us out from under clear scriptural proofs.

 

I posted the dictionary definition of the English word "reward", with Biblical examples of those uses of the word. We don't get to "construe" definitions. God chose the words. We choose whether or not to believe them.

Lacy

PS. I'm quite sure that the Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Olde English words for "reward" have the same meaning. Quit "construe-ing" and read.

 

Hi Ed,

You said we should answer this question:

The answer is YES!!!

Now answer this question: Do you think a saved beliver can be punished for disobedience???

The problem is that many assume such punishment may only happen in this life. I agree that Christians wil not be punished in the new heaven and earth - after all, God will wipe away all tears! There'll be no more death! No more pain! But what about before that time? Please give scriptural evidence that believers are immune from punishment at the judgement seat and during the 1000 year period.

 

If a sinner was saved by grace + works, then grace would no longer be grace. For grace means UNDESERVED FAVOR from God. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith and NOT OF OURSELVES, so NO MAN can boast. Eph 2:8-9.

But godly works stem FROM saving faith. Eph 2:10. We bring forth godly works because God works through us and IN us by his Holy Spirit conforming us into the image of his Son.

 

History's teachers of millenial exclusion were (and are) some of the greatest champions of eternal security and salvation by faith (Believing) alone. But reward is accoprding to works after (in) faith. That is a clear and indesputable doctrine in scripture. Those who teach exclusion, have rightly divided the free gift and the reward/prize.

We also bring forth good works by our choice to either walk holy or not. Of course the Spirit works in us or else we could have no good works. But we choose to be an obedient Christian or a disobedient one. And the Bible is full of REAL warnings to REAL Christians with REAL consequences.

Lacy

 

</font>[/QUOTE]God still answers prayers!

You need the scriptures for that?

 

Bartholomew: " I agree that Christians wil not be punished in the new heaven and earth - after all, God will wipe away all tears! There'll be no more death! No more pain! But what about before that time?"

There is no time between the rapture/resurrection on
earth before the Tribulation period Wrath Judgements
and and the arrival in heaven. That is where we differ.

I am really having a problem though that Jesus will let
his Bride be raped in the Tribulation priod Wrath Judgements
and then penalize members of the Bride for unfaithfulness
because of the rape. The scripture is the one we used
to teach in preschool Sunday school and Children's Worship:

God is love.

 

Rev. 20:12-15

Describes the Great White Throne Judgement.
I already showed on page two how
this is different from the Judgement
Seat of Christ. I wrote that description
prior to hearing about the heresy of
Millennial Exclusion.

I can't check all these scriptures at one.
But this one doesn't mention
the Millennial exclusion nor that God
abuses His special Jesus believing Children.



God is good, all the time.
All the time, God is good.

 

quote of Lorelei:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, not a bad reward.
Once we receive forgiveness for sin and receive eternal
life, that debt has been paid. We cannot be punished with
just retribution for something Christ's blood has already
forgiven. I believe in our legal system we refer to that
as "double jeopardy" and that is certainly not a Scriptural doctrine.
~Lorelei
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen, Sister Lorelei -- Preach it!

 

AMen, Brother Ronald -- Preach it!

 

Rev 20 describes the duration (The ending, if you will) of the exclusion.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Why would that statement be necessary if there were not those who WERE found written in the book of life? Just hyperbole? I doubt it. Rev 21:4 says someone's tears are wiped away. (After the GWT!) Whose? The world just experienced 1000 years of eden-like conditions with Christ himself ruling bodily. How could anyone be crying?

Lacy

You like that word "heresy" don't you. It carries a lot of emotional, subjective weight. Plenty of heat and little light.

 

I prefer "apostasy" but haven't learned
how to spell the various forms yet.

 

Ed: "Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Your problem is that you
are confusing servants of God
with children of God.
God will NOT toss his Children into outer darkness."

Quoted by Lacy:
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

ed: "Intersting use of the
the scripture to lie."

Lacy: "What lie? I just posted a scripture? No commentary, no lie unless you consider the Bible a lie? It's an interesting reaction to a verse."

Come on, the Devil can use scripture to lie, so can people.
Because of the posibility of law suits, i hardly run
about using "lie" when there are fudge words available.

I said: "God is NOT going to
throw any of His children into outer
darkness."

You were trying to counter that with scripture.
You quoted scripture outside the context in which it was
written. That is a lie. Here is the scripture with
context:

8-13 (HCSB):

"Lord," the centurion replied, "I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But only say the word, and my servant will be cured. 9 For I too am a man under authority, having soldiers under my command. I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes; and to another, 'Come!' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." 10 Hearing this, Jesus was amazed and said to those following Him, "I assure you: I have not found anyone in Israel with so great a faith! 11 I tell you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus told the centurion, "Go. As you have believed, let it be done for you." And his servant was cured that very moment.

Clearly then, the scripture is NOT supporting you
as verse 12 alone might indicate.
This scripture, in context supports me.
Which is what i meant when i said:
"What Jesus is saying there in Matthew 8:12
is that those who think they are saved
because they are Jews might be going
to hell. But some who are no Jews, by
contrast will be saved."

About the term "neo-liberal Lacy says:
"I assume by "neo" you somehow think that this doctrine is new."

Nope. The false doctrine might not be new.
The new age philosophers use old gods that expired
their usefulness thousands of years ago. It is the
neo-liberal movement that is newly penetrating
so called "fundamentalist" organizations.
Neo-liberals use old false doctrines.