Judgment of God in Dan 7 and Romans 2

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Since we seem to have a flurry of posts on the PTR and OSAS recently -- I thought I would toss this new topic out for a change.

    In 2Cor 5, Dan 7 and Romans 2 we see reference to the pre-advent, future, judgment of God.

    in Dan 7 we are told that the saints do not receive the kingdom until this event completes.

    in Romans 2:13-16 we are told that all (both Jew and Gentile) are to be judged in that future judgment.

    In 2Cor 5 we are told that both good deeds and sins -- evil deeds will be evaluated in that judgment.

    In Rev 14 we see the message go out to all those who dwell on the earth "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".

    Question for the group?

    When do you preach on this important topic? When do you hear preaching on it?

    Is it presented in scripture as something to be ignored?

    What are your thoughts?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I wrote this up 17 years ago to use on another venue:

    -----------------

    Five Judgements

    The Lord God is a judging God

    "To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

    A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
    B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
    C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

    The Five Judgements:

    1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
    WHO: All who will Believe
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
    (and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    "

    2. Judgement Seat of Christ
    WHO: Believers for works
    WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
    Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Heaven
    WHY: to assign rewards (including
    the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
    to the redeemed for their good works
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

    3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
    (Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
    Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
    WHO: Yisrael
    WHEN: during the Tribulation
    WHERE: earth
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Great Tribulation

    4. Throne of His Glory judgement
    (AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
    2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
    WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
    (these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
    WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
    who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
    HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
    WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
    to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

    5. Great White Throne judgement
    (Revelation 20:11:15)
    WHO: the wicked dead
    WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
    WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
    WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
    HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    judgements above does not preclude other specific
    or general judgements. One place on the net i found
    a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
    The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
    by His revelation to us nor
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

    --compilation by ed,
    incurable Jesus Phreaque

    -------------------------------

    Sorry, I don't have time to anwer you questions.
    Your scriptures probably fit one or more of those
    Judgements??
     
  3. BobRyan

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    I think Daniel 7 fits with Romans 2 and 2cor 5 -- but you have 2Cor 5 in the wrong place.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Thank you, Brother BobRyan.
    It looks like the line // 2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)//
    Migrated. It should be under #2 Judgement Seat of Christ
    (where it went missing). My disk file is updated and
    I'll have it right next time /maybe???/.
    Again, Thank you, Brother BobRyan.

    I take back the last six bad things I said about
    Brother BobRyan ... :sleeping_2:
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Always glad to help
     
  6. BobRyan

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    These texts all speak of the same event - the pre-advent judgment of all mankind highlighted in both NT and OT.

    Rev 22:10-13 “Let him who is righteous be righteous still.. I am coming quickly”

    Rev 11:18-19 “The time came for the Dead to be judged the temple of God was opened”

    1 Peter 4:17-18 “Judgment begins with the house of God”

    2 Cor 5:10 “We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ”

    Dan 7: 22 “Judgment was passed in favor of the Saints”

    Rom 2:11-16 “doers of the Law will be justified”

    Matt 7 “Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter”

    James 2 you are to be “judged by the Law of Liberty”

    --------------------------------------------

    Starting with Daniel 7 - teaching on God's Judgment of all mankind


    1. 4th beast – Pagan then Papal Roman Empire.
    2. Splits into 10
    3. Papal Rome arises from the split – destroys 3 of the 10. vs 17-20
    4. Saints are persecuted vs 21
    5. Heavenly court sits while persecuting power – persecutes saints
    6. =è YOU are here
    7. Saints are judged – judgment passed in favor of saints vs 22
    8. Court approves saints and condemns the persecuting power vs 26
    9. Kingdom delivered over to Christ and the saints - vs 27


    Dan 7
    9 ""I kept looking Until [b]thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat[/b]; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels[/b] were a burning fire.
    10 ""A
    river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. [/b]


    13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the [b]clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days[/b] And was presented before Him.
    14 ""And to Him was
    given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

    15 ""As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
    16 ""I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:


    17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings[/b] who will arise from the earth.
    18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [b]for all ages to come.'


    19 ""Then I desired to know the
    exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
    20
    and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

    21 ""I kept looking, and [b]that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22
    until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints
    of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
    23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
    24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise[/b]; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.


    25 "He will speak out against the Most High and
    wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


    26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
    27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of
    all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

     
    #6 BobRyan, Oct 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2007
  7. Ed Edwards

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    I was looking at Daniel 7. It looks like that may be
    right-on to what happens at the beginning of
    the Tribulation Period, Tribulatin Period Judgements,
    Daniel's 70th Week, etc.

    I didn't know (or at 64 didn't remember) that
    Daniel 2:4 to Daniel 7:28 is the part of the
    Bible in Aramaic (or Strongs says 'Caldee').
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Except it is hard to look at the fall of the pagan roman empire and pretend that we do not see the saints being persecuted in the 1260 years of the dark ages.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    What would be the years & events (end and finish)
    on those 1260 years?
    What is the scripture that mentions the 1260 years?

    You do know that 1260 divided by 360 is 3&½?
    I can relate all the 1260 days, 3½-years,
    42 months, 'time, times, & half a time' to the
    two halves (each 3½ years or 42 months or 1260 days)
    of the 70th week of Daniel (see Daniel 9).

    Go over here and see my post #118:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1118252#post1118252

    It tells all the scriptures in the bible on 1260, 42months, 1260days
    and "time and times and half a time" and "half a week" /implied/
    and what the Bible say about happens in those times.
     
    #9 Ed Edwards, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2007
  10. BobRyan

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    Dan 7, Dan 12, Rev 11, Rev 12

    Just as the Dan 9's 70 weeks-of years is 490 years.

    Just as Dan 8's 2300 years (days - years) covers the many centuries from the time of the Persian Empire (Dan 8 says the time line starts with Medo-Persia) to the fall and divide of Greece to the rise of the Dan 7 and 8 little horn power that comes after the fall of Pagan Rome.

    As Dan 7 points out the persecution of the saints after the divide of pagan Rome covers many centuries.

    Rev 12 makes the same point following the ascension of Christ.

    And obviously we see it happen in history.

    Pretty hard to miss.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2007
  11. BobRyan

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    Which gets us to a point on another thread here - the Dan 7 and Rev 12 persecution of the saints -- is also what we see in Matt 24 called "the Great Tribulation".

    By contrast in Dan 7 you see the judgment of God that ends with "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" at which point the wicked must stop persecuting the saints.

    So i don't see anyway to portray persecution of saints as "a day of God's wrath upon the saints" rather it is the act of the wicked.

    The judgment of God in Dan 7 is actually working in favor of the saints not persecuting them.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. skypair

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    BR,

    Let's analyze Dan 7:7-9 a minute.

    " After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire."

    Where were the 10 horns? and the three? I can see where the "little horn" with "eyes of man..." would be the Pope/AC -- I'm just trying to establish how you see this as past.

    However, Dan 7:9, 22 ( looks like Rev 4 to me -- "judgment given to the saints on 12 thrones" with the Ancient of Days). That is, the saints are raptured (Rev 4) and then the 4th beast comes, 7:23 (this is the order of angel's own interpretation, BTW).

    The 10 horns/kings correspond to those in Rev 13 and 17. So I see the 10 horns and 3 as future with AC emerging then.

    You're not gonna "beat a dead horse" of your SDA eschatology again, are you? :laugh:

    skypair
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Hint: The NIV study Bible was not written by SDAs -- Look at the notes there to see how glaringly obvious this Dan 7 chapter is to almost every Bible scholar on the planet in pointing to the 4 major world Empires starting with Babylon and going through to Pagan Rome and then the fall of the Roman empire (which is clearly post cross).

    The fact that Rome split up among the primary germanic tribes is a fact of history.

    The role of the Papacy in orchestrating the demise of three of those Germanic tribes is also a matter of history.

    THIS part of the argument (the fact that Rome is number four in that list -- it fell- it divided and the Papacy arose out of the ashes as the single dominant empire to follow) is beyond dispute.

    Why take the most obvious part and object Skypair? Try something with a better chance of survival.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    // The fact that Rome split up among the primary
    germanic tribes is a fact of history.//

    Care to relate that history?
    Care to tell us about the Eastern Syrian Church - the
    largest church in the world while the
    Vandals were invading Rome (early 5th Century /401-500/
    until the rise of the Arabs/Muslims. The Muslims killed
    off the Church pretty much (the Muslims also killed off
    nearly all the Coptic Church (in area in & around Egypt).
    Ed notes that that the SDA literature of the 19th Century
    (1801-1900) & early 20th Century (1901-2000) were
    was based nearly all on the early Protestant History
    based heavily on RCC /Roman Catholic Church/ history.
    The history of the East Syrian Church & Coptic Church
    was discovered in the late 20th Century (1901-2000)
    but not spread around much. I guess Wikipedia would
    have some of it?

    Care for my essay on the Vandals again?
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Oh yes, here is another 'poof text' for OSAS:

    Rom 11:29 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    For the giftes and calling of God are without repentance.

    So the Lord isn't going to repent (change His mind)
    about the gifts He has given the Saved person
    nor is the Lord going to repent (change His mind) about
    the call to His Salvation whereby He called one.
     
  16. skypair

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    Well, where were and are the 10 kings now? when did he (the "little horn") "devour the whole earth?" What do you suspect is going on in Europe today? Isn't the EU the 4th kingdom revived? not "dimised" after all?

    Did I miss Christ's return with 10,000's of His angels shortly after the Papacy "arose out of the ashes?" Did I miss the beast slain and his body thrown into the "fiery lake.?"

    I don't suppose all that was in the NIV, was it.

    skypair
     
  17. BobRyan

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    In the case of the previous empires they "devour" and conquer. Greece still exists though "devoured by Rome".

    So the bottom line is - what is your question? What part of what the NIV study bible says do you not accept?

    There is no "Papacy arose out of ashes" in Daniel 7 nor is there "little horn arises out of ashes" in Daniel 7.

    Details.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Romans 2 is not on this thread - even though the title says it would be - so then the long awaited "Romans 2" addition that shows 'future judgment" and the basis for that future judgment.

    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    We have not yet gone into the Great tribulation period of time, as that is still afuture time that will start after Jesus raptures out his saved in the World at that time!
     
  20. BobRyan

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    according to Dan 7 the judgment continues during the time that the saints are being tormented by the little horn power of Dan 7.

    So then .. about 50 million Christians killed during the dark ages by the RCC - we call that "persecution". ISIS does not hold a candle to it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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