Judgment On The House of God Comes First

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Enow, Aug 30, 2009.

  1. Enow

    Enow
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    Judgment must fall on the House of God first. As Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do. Note the reason for the excommunication at the rapture event: iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 Now note the exhortation for every believer: To depart from iniquity: 2 Timothy 2:18-21

    This is what seperates the vessels unto honour, the elect, the chosen.. from the vessels unto dishonour, the called, but the foolish virgins and the prodigal sons as many are called but a few are chosen. That is why believers are warned against false prophets and sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption. Fighting the good fight is keeping the faith wherein there is reward: obtaining salvation which is in Christ Jesus WITH eternal glory ( 2 Timothy 2:10) as a vessel unto honour: the chaste bride.

    Those left behind, Jesus will finish what He had started in them in that they had been bought with a price and sealed as His thus proving that the prodigal son is still son and the foolish virgins that did not have oil for their lamps: they will, so they will shine as witnesses of what Christ has done as Saviour for believing in Him. As there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus with the stipulation that they walk not after the flesh, so is in the love of God, that nothing shall seperate us as God the Father shall chasten every child He receives for as the Father, His wrath will fall on the "sons" of disobedience so that they may be partakers of His holiness: Hebrews 12:1-29 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 This is how He loses nothing, and how we have eternal security.

    In light of eternity, dare we be :sleep: ?

    Pray to Jesus now for help in pruning away those offenses in being ready for the Marriage Supper... while the doors are still open for that first inheritance.
     
  2. annsni

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    Can you show me the verse that says that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus except those who walk after the flesh?

    So you believe that we can lose the salvation by our works - when we didn't do anything to gain that salvation but it was by Christ alone?
     
  3. steaver

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    Will you be going in the rapture if it should happen right now?

    Why or why not?

    :jesus:
     
  4. donnA

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    If the bible says we are kept by God for Himself, then the judegement of failure to keep salvation is not against us, but God
     
  5. TCGreek

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    Peter was addressing the immediate suffering that his readers was encountering.
     
  6. Enow

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    Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    And yet this is the love of God decalred in the same chapter:

    Romans 8:31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    So how can the two portions of scriptures be true?

    2 Corinthians 11: 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


    2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    Salvation is not at risk nor is eternal security. It is the first inheritance to be the chaste bride of Christ as a vessel unto honour in God's House as opposing being a vessel unto dishonour in God's House.

    That is why judgment must fall on the House of God first for just as Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do to those that commit inquity in setting them apart as vessels unto dishonour.

    Salvation is not a works based: running the race by looking to the author and finisher of our faith is: Jesus Christ the Lord so as to obtain eternal glory as a vessel unto honour in Christ Jesus.

    When believers say to those that have fallen away that they were never saved, that is indirectly preaching the denying of the Lord that bought them when they had believed on Him in the beginning and implying a work base salvation effort on the part of the believer to keep himself saved, but that is not the case.

    As believers mistaken this verse below as a works base salvation effort, they are not reading what the endurance is for...to be with Christ WITH eternal glory.. which is peratining to being a vessel unot honour in His House.

    2 Timothy 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

    All those that believe in Him are saved in that they have been bought with a price and sealed as His, but as many are called but few are chosen, both the religious and the carnal should cease from their ways to rest in Him not only for eternal life, but for help in living as His as the power in living the christian life is of God and not of us and that is why it is written that the just shall live by faith... in the Son of God as having that reconciled relationship with God.

    Galatians 2: 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law ( or by our efforts or by our will ), then Christ is dead in vain.

    John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    The good fight is keeping the faith in Jesus Christ, and we do that by the grace of God as our confidence is in Jesus Christ in finishing His work in us for He would not bother to save anyone and then lose them. That is not to His glory as Saviour. The foolish virgins will have oil for their lamps and shine as witnesses of what Christ has done in having saved them even though they will be left behind at the rapture event just as the prodigal sons will also, that gave up their "first inheritance" for wild living find themselves to still be "sons" even though there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for not abiding in Him by walking after the flesh.

    So the call is to exhort every believer in the hopes of presenting them as a chaste bride in Christ to receive that first inheritance: the Marriage supper of the Bridegroom and the bride.... as vessels unto honour in God's House. All of this is to be done with the emphasis on the faith we are to have in :jesus:
     
  7. Enow

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    I am not pushing a work base salvation, but an exhortation for every believer to depart from iniquity so as to be found abiding in Him as a chaste bride of Christ ready for the Bridegroom by His grace. It is the first inheritance, the rapture event before the great tribulation, and that can only be obtained by faith in the Son of God to get us there... as those elect, the vessesl unto honour", will cast their crowns at His feet because the crowns are really His "crowning achievements" in us of His workmanship manifested to His glory.

    The vessels unto dishonour are those not ready nor found abiding in Him. They followed a stranger's voice and not His voice. They walked after the flesh, giving up their first inheritance for wild living and so like Esau that gave up his birthright for a meal, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    But Jesus will lose nothing as He will finish His work in those left behind and God will wipe away the tears from their eyes to get them past their loss.

    So eternal security is not threatened; but the call is to be ready, looking to the author and finisher of our faith in helping us run that race as many are called, but few are chosen... as the jst shall live by faith in the Son of God.

    As for the questions.... my hope is in Jesus Christ.. so yes.

    John 1: 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    Colossians 1: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

    Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    So by faith in the Son of God to help me keep the faith which is the good fight and to help me live as His as abiding in Him... He will bring me Home for He is the Good Shepherd as well as the Saviour. That is to His glory and how we can rest in Jesus when we came to and believed in Him:jesus::godisgood:
     
  8. Enow

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    It has nothing to do with salvation: but being a chaste bride of Christ to be found ready and abiding in Him after having been bought with a price and sealed as His. Do we seek to be vessels unto honour in God's House or neglect His words and become vessels unto dishonour in God's House?

    How we build in that relationship with Christ is the key"

    Do we walk after the flesh? Then there will be condemnation, but not the kind that seperates us from the love of God for the Father will chasten every child He receives so that they may be partakers of His holiness, but there will be a loss of that first inheritance as the prodigal son gave it up for wild living. The prodigal son will find that he is still son for he was bought with a price and sealed as His for believing in the Son of God, but as a vessel unto dishonour in God's House. In light of eternity, is that wild fling worth it? That is why the reference to Esau was made.. something temporary for something of value for eternity. All a wayward believer has to do is turn to Jesus for help to live as His by faith that He will finish His work in them to be vessels unto honour. His word will guide us as to what we need to turn over to Him to accomplish in us in putting off the old man with his deeds.

    The flip side of teh coin is are we keeping the faith and hope in Christ Jesus to get us there? Or are we resorting to our own power as if we can finish it by the flesh what Jesus had started by the Spirit?

    The cop out of "they were never saved" is just as bad as preaching a works base salvation because that places the emphasis on the believer. With that teaching, a wayward believer may not return after realizing his error because he may believe one cannot renew themselves, but the scriptures simply was stating that when bought with a price and sealed as His, it would be a shame for Jesus to crucify Himself again to "save" that believer for that would imply God's inability to save and that is not the truth for we are His, bought and paid for. They should feel free to return to the Shepherd and Overseer of their souls as lost sheep are still "sheep" that was bought and paid for. His.

    Some may doubt if he is really coming to and believing in Jesus when he did so before. Such looking to oneself for the seriousness of his coming to and believing in Jesus is taking away the joy of salvation for the hope is not on the believer but on Jesus for eternal life. Jesus has saved him. It is up to the believer to continue in that hope in living the christian life by faith in the Son of God... as it is written.. the just shall live by faith.

    So as Jesus taught excommunication, so will judgment fall on the House of God as those left behind after His appearing will be drawn back to the Son, restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake. Jesus will finish His work in them in that they will not love their lives, even unto death.:love2::jesus:

    Because of the falling away... His appearing is the wake up call::sleep::sleeping_2:
     
  9. Enow

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    Yes, but encouraging them to continue "to run that race" in "heeding the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" in spite of that suffering as judgment is coming on the House of God first so the necessity of enduring is by faith in the Son of God to finish what He had started in them so that they can walk with confidence in Him Who will enable them to get through their trials to be vessels unto honour in God's House.

    I only referred to 1 Peter 4:17 to apply towards 2 Timothy 2:18-22 as the exhortation for believers to depart from iniquity in keeping the faith and to not walk after the flesh in the liberty we have in Christ Jesus as both walks are being done by faith in the Son of God in getting us Home to be vessels unto honour.

    But your application for exhortation is just as good as believers that are suffering are doing so by ceasing from sin, and keeping the faith in spite of the world of temptations and hostilities around us in the world.

    Same chapter.. same application:

    1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    By faith in the Son of God can we endure and overcome.

    Philippians 4: 13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

    Galatians 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    1 Corinthians 10: 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Hebrews 2: 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Hebrews 4: 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. :godisgood::jesus:
     
  10. annsni

    annsni
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    Please note that those who are in Christ Jesus do not walk after the flesh. It is not saying that if we walk in the flesh, we will then receive condemnation. You can't twist the words to make it say what it does not say.

    Because the first passage is not saying what you say it's saying.

    I don't have a lot of time - DH and I are going "church plant" investigating in a few minutes, so I need to get going. But we know through Scripture, that we are sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. Sealed is sealed. That's eternal. But we need to be sure that we present to Jesus on that day that we meet Him face-to-face a holy vessel - one that has been dedicated to Him through their whole life. I certainly would not feel that great if I did nothing to spread God's Word or serve Him in the way the King of kings and Lord of lords should be. But it doesn't mean that I will lose my salvation if I don't do things perfectly. That's not supported by Scripture.
     
  11. Enow

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    Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    You want more? Okay, but due note, I am not talking about salvation, but abiding in Him for inheritting the Kingdom of God.

    Romans 8: 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Romans 8:12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    1 Corinthians 6: 8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

    2 Peter 2: 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    Are you sure now?

    That is the difference in our wordings between you and me. You speak of your dedication, but I speak of my faith of Whom I am entrusting my soul to for helping me to follow Him by the grace of God. Your emboldened words are contrary to the emboldened ones below for such dedication does suggest doing it perfectly as any commitment to follow Christ in keeping it boasts of.

    I agree with your last emboldened statement but if you bother to listen and look around, you will find believers claiming they have kept their commitement to follow Christ while fingerpointing others that they need to make a re-commitment because of backsliding or sin or just not as "dedicated" as he or she is. All kinds of evil can come our of speaking of one's commitment to follow Chhrist and thus it is a bad tree altogther.

    Either we live by faith in the Son of God by the grace of God or... not. When sinners come to Jesus, they cannot see it in themselves to quit sinning, but that is why Jesus came.. to destroy the works of the devil in our lives, but if the emphasis is on the believer... he will fail... if it is on the believer and Jesus Christ... he will be a yo yo.. looking to himself in doing the best he can while failing and on failing, he would look to Jesus to set him back on his feet again, but he will think he owes the Lord to keep trying because after all, he made a commitment to follow Him.....and thus be a double-minded christian... that is a miserable existence... I lived it... but thanks be to God through Jesus Christ that He has set me free to rest in Him and all His promises to me that He will do His workmanship in me as I follow Him by faith.

    So.. yes... there is condemnation to those that walk after the flesh for they will reap corruption.... and become vessels unto dishonour in God's House.

    Galatians 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

    That is why that one group in Revelation 7 in coming out of the great tribulation had to have their robes washed by the Blood of the Lamb.

    The other group coming out of the great tribulation in Revelation 6 had to be given white robes for dead works that voids faith robs them of their wedding garment. That is the consequences for all those that did not heed His words and do them, their houses were built on sand for they did not heed His invitations to come to rest in Jesus by faith, but looked elsewhere "instead of Christ" which is the definition of anti-christ. Any means they placed between you and Jesus is the thief.. from the commitment to follow Christ to the Promise Keepers program to the works of catholicism... that voids the faith in our walk with Him. Either our hope is on Him or they that divide that hope will draw back when He appears.

    So by all means, remember your first love :love2::jesus:

    And do not be identified by your commitment to follow Christ or else , not only could this occur, but others may follow as well. :BangHead:

    Let us be identified by our faith in Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ...........26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    So others may know how we are living that christian life..by entrusting Him.
     
  12. Enow

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    Psalm 121: 1I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

    2My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

    3He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

    4Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

    5The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.

    6The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.

    7The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.

    8The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.


    That is why the just shall live by faith... in Him and all his promises to us so we can be witnesses of Jesus Christ.. the Good News to man.
     
  13. RAdam

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    The wresting of Romans 8 saddens me to no end. That glorious chapter in the bible teaches this above all else: the security of God's elect in the love of Christ. To twist those scriptures as you have is just plain wrong and you need to read that chapter again, pray, and repent of your current position because it is bad, it violates the context, and it dishonors God.

    Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, which walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    The latter part of that text is a description, not a prerequisite. How do I know that? Because the context bears that out. Paul is talking about two classes of individuals, those that are in Christ and those that aren't. Paul has before stated, in Romans 5:18, that all mankind is naturally under condemnation. Now he says that those in Christ are free from that condemnation. He describes the two classes of people, those in and those outside of Christ, as walking after the Spirit and after the flesh respectively. Look at the next text:

    8:2 "For (or because) the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

    Why is there no condemnation for those in Christ? Because the law of the Spirit of life made them free from that. Not because they walked after the Spirit, but because the Spirit made them free. In fact, the walking after the Spirit is because they are freed, thus Paul uses this as a description of these people. If you keep reading you'll find that Christ came and through His work freed the people in Him from the penalty of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh. Now if you keep on reading you'll find where Paul starts talking about these two classes of people. Those after the flesh mind the flesh, those after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Those after the flesh are unable to please God, they aren't subject to the law of God, and their minds are at emnity with God. Then Paul makes this profound statement to the Roman brethren:

    8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

    Paul says these folks are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. In other words, they are those who he characterizes as walking after the Spirit, and thus they are in Christ. Notice that he says they are in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in them. He does not say they are in the Spirit is so be that they continue in good works, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, etc. He says the difference maker between them and those in the flesh is the indwelling Spirit of God. Any man that has not the Spirit is none of His. This is clear that what Paul is describing is regenerate and unregenerate people. The regenerate are said to be in Christ and characterized as walking after the Spirit. The unregenerate are not in Christ, thus are still condemned, and are characterized as walking after the flesh. Now, if you don't like this keep on reading and you'll eventually land at this marvelous text:

    8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

    You find me someone walking after the Spirit that isn't being led by the Spirit. Go ahead, but you won't find that. So, Paul tells me here that if you find one led by the Spirit, well that's a son of God, an heir and a joint-heir with Christ, of whom the indwelling Spirit is a testifier of his/her sonship and also guarantees their eventual resurrection and glorification.

    Now, if you proceed in Romans 8 you'll eventually end up at these great questions:

    8:31 "What shall we say then to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"

    8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    I've always wondered how people that believed that one had to persevere in good works in order to avoid finally falling away could manage these texts, and I've come to the conclusion that they can't without severely twisting them. Paul, in light of telling us that salvation is of the Lord and is sure, then discusses the fallout of that. What shall we say then? Paul says that the child of God is secure, there's no separation from the love of God. There is no chance of finally falling away. I'll also add that to suggest that God is going to leave one of His little ones behind is to really demean the character of God. The chapter that began with the glorious proclamation of no condmenation ends with the equally glorious assurance of no separation. God forbid that we should twist such an assuring chapter in the bible to say things it does not, such as that one must continue in good works in order to avoid falling away. While we should endeavor to serve God, the child is secure in the hand of God, as this wonderful chapter makes plain.
     
  14. RAdam

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    Let me also make this point: anyone basing their doctrine on Revelation is making a huge mistake. I'm not devaluing that wonderful book, in fact I often study it. But, that book should be read in light of the clear teaching of the rest of the bible and not in spite of it. You act as if you have the whole book of Revelation figured out and you dogmatically argue such. That's a dangerous position to take.
     
  15. annsni

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    GREAT post. Thanks for the hard work. :thumbsup:
     
  16. Enow

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    No. Paul is addressing believers as he is exhorting them and warning them..

    Romans 8: 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    .... 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    Again:

    Romans 8: 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    Paul is not talking to nor writing to non-believers.

    Paul would not bother exhorting nor warning regenerated believers from following after the flesh which means some will and some have. Some will even fall away from the faith, but it doesn't change the fact that God bought them and sealed then as His when they came to and believed in Jesus Christ.

    2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

    Explain this how a brother that walks not after the tradition taught of us as being of the wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith is still called a brother and not the enemy?

    2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

    Could it be he has been bought as a price and sealed as His and thus those in the faith are to do this?

    2 Timothy 2:24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    I agree with that: just not how you got there in your application. The quote explains how many are called but only a few are chosen in how the vessels of honour are seperated from the vessels unt dishonour... when judgment falls on the House of God first... as Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do at the rapture event before the great tribulation. It is necessary as His appearing will restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake, albeit, they miss out on the first inheritance for not being ready.

    1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    Jesus warned about false prophets coming into the body of believers. He warned believers to watch, test all things... discern by the meat of the Word of what is good and evil.. what is of faith and what is not... what leads believers away from resting in Him by heeding other invitations "instead of Christ". By not heeding His words and doing them great is the fall of that house.:tonofbricks:

    When fornication was found in 1 Corinthians, Paul rebuked them to excommunicate the wicked person for this purpose.

    1 Corinthians 5: 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    And yet in the second letter, the brother repented: Paul instructed them to let him back in. Anyway, may God cause the increase, so that those that have fallen away may freely seek Him again for they are His, bought & sealed.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So for all those that have backslidden and foolishly sown to the flesh and reaped corruption: call on Jesus to help you depart from iniquity in putting off the old man and his deeds for He promised that sin shall not have dominion over you.. just as He will provide the answers for those that have fallen away from the faith to do away with whatever stole your faith in Him.
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Enow is correct.

    The reason why I do not agree with dispensationalists, they way they intepreting scriptures. For example, they saying this passage is not apply to us, it's apply to Jews or unbelievers etc.

    Many dispensationalists who hold eternal security or OSAS doctrine, saying of Gal. 5:19-21 do not apply to us as Christians, they say, this apply to unbelievers. But Apostle Paul was written this passage to the Christians. Therefore, he warning to us of conditional.

    Also, many dispensationalists saying of Hebrews chapter 3, chapter 4, and 6:4-6 these are not apply to us as Christians. They saying these are apply to Jews only.

    That why, their intepretings are dangerous, also, they do twist Scriptures. In 2 Timothy 3:16 - "ALL scriptures is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" This tells us, ALL scriptures from Genesis to Revelation are apply to us, not just for Jews or unbelievers either.

    Many saying Henrews chapter 3 and chapter 4 are not apply to us, these apply to Jews. Then, my question, WHY does the author wrote that? Why, do the translators all agreed that book is considered God's Word, as it canon together with 65 books? Therefore, ALL scriptures are given message to us as Christians.

    Enow is right that Romans chapter 8 is very clear speaking to us as Christians. Apostle Paul warns us if we walk in flesh, we cannot please God. Bible commands us that we ought walk in the Spirit to please God. Or, if we walk flesh, then we cannot enter the kingdom of God(eternal life), we shall sow and reap punishment -Gal. 6:8. It commands us to walk after Spirit daily, as we sowing in the Spirit, therefore, we shall reap eternal life(final salvation at death or Lord comes).

    Throughout all books of N.T, showing us salvation is conditional. No way that we can neglect them. Heb. 2:3 says, "HOW shall we escape. if we NEGLECT so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that hear him:"

    It warns us, how can we escape(everlasting fire), if we ngelect so great salvation when after we first heard the gospel? We must hold fast and endure in the Lord when after we first heard the gospel (Heb. 3:6, 14) throughour our life till death or Lord comes. Or, otherwise, if we do not hold fast and endure in the midst of our life, then we shall not be saved at the end (Matt 10:22; and Matt. 24:13).

    Bible teaching us very clear that salvation is conditional by base on our faith, obey, and follow God's word, and to keep our life holy daily, so, we shall receive eternal life at the end (Romans 6:22 "the END everlasting life").

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. steaver

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    GREAT! :thumbs: And according to your answer so is everyone who has faith in Jesus Christ. The Born of God!

    :jesus:
     
  19. steaver

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    Salvation has one condition, Ye must be Born Again! Can you show us from the scriptures were children of God go to hell?

    :jesus:
     
  20. Enow

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    You are half right. We are correct in that scriptures have been given to warn every believer to be ready and found abiding in Him, but you are not correct in what punishment it is referring to. There is hellfire and there is the wrath of God. God the Father will chasten every child He receives so that is why I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture for that is the day that shall declare what work that man's is.

    1 Corinthians 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are..... 21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

    Destroying the body.. death is not destroying the soul. Look at how Paul saw excommunication being used for.

    1 Corinthians 5: 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    What did Jesus say to those that were led astray?

    Matthew 7: 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    And yet the call is this: As the rapture does this:

    2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

    As Jesus taught excommunication, so will He do.

    Hebrews 12: 4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

    And that is what being left behind at the rapture event does for those that have fallen away from the faith and/ or have sown to the flesh to reap corruption.

    Will His Word return void or will He not accomplish what He has set out to do? We are to have confidence that he who began a good work in us will finish it in the day of Christ Jesus.... even for those left behind.

    1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    That is the day that will declare what sort a man's work shall be. That is the day when the vessels unto honour are chosen into God's House as the chaste bride while those left behind are the vessels unto dishonour in God's House. This is where we get references towards Esau to be applied as one that gave up his birthright for a meal but as the prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance for wild living, he will find that he is still son for he had been bought with a price and sealed as His.

    The rapture is not some wishy dreamy escape for believers. Jesus said that because of false prophets broadening the way in approaching God "instead of Christ", only a few will find that faith in Him. That is why the judgment must come; as His appearing will restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His.

    Why save someone if He will lose them? It is the first inheritance that will be lost: not salvation for He will lose nothing.

    John 6: 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    That is why many are called but a few are chosen.. hence the elect... and hence why the rapture is before the great tribulation for that is when judgment must fall on the House of God... as it must comes first.

    So eternal security is not threatened, but you are right in that many believers in OSAS and eternal security are not seeing the danger of not being ready nor abiding in Him... for the wrath of God will fall on the "sons" of disobedience. That death... that loss of their first inheritance.. is a punishment.. a condemnation... as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but God will wipe away the tears from their eyes in performing a miracle to get them past their loss for all those coming out of the great tribulation.

    So that is how all the scriptures ties in together in how Jesus will be glorified in Heaven for what He has done for all those that believe in Him, even for the wayward.:jesus:

    May we exhort every believer in presenting them as a chaste bride to live by faith in the Son of God as their Good Shepherd as well as their Saviour for that is how the just shall live... by faith in the Son of God to help them live as His as well as entrust him for eternal life.

    Those that do not heed His words... of coming to Him for life... not to the Holy Spirit...for He is in us so there is no coming to the Holy Spirit... not to the RCC, the confessionals, Mary, nor any of the departed saints...:tonofbricks: for all invitations for eternal life is by coming to and believing in Jesus Christ to rest in Him. :jesus: By climbing up another way is a work of iniquity as Jesus is the only way to God the Father to have that relationship with God for Him to know us personally and as we are the Bride to teh Bridegroom, all eyes should be on Christ for He shall be appearing soon.

    So as addressing both sides of the coin.... salvation is not conditional, but the first inheritance is. Those that believe in eternal security need to know that many are called, but few are chosen so the cop out excuse of those that have fallen away were never saved in the first place is a lie.

    God the Father does not cease to be Father to the children bought and paid for... and that is why judgment must fall on the House of God first.:godisgood:
     

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